Just so everyone knows, the Debate Club will be going on hiatus for one week due to Halloween (everyone have a happy and safe one!). I will leave this thread open for continued discussion for an extra week to compensate
GBAtemp Debate Club: Videogame Sexism
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of course games are heavily catering to the male audience because they're perceived as the bigger market. also because they have so much more experience catering to them. the gameboy wasn't named gameboy by accident.
of course, in recent years, females have become more of a target, but companies try to woo them going with the most superficial stereotypes (cooking mama and super princess 'i'm emotionally instable' peach' etc) so i absolutely understand the growing anger towards the status quo from female audiences.
thing is, when everything is said and done, this kind of marketing is also the reason why less females have the same level of obsessive interest in videogames.
instead of simply making the existing games more inclusive (with a female hero choice for example, that's not going to be chosen by guys because a thinly clad ass will wiggle in front of them for the big save the world adventure) they try to sell them the same bull thats been sold to them for decades -girls need ponies and giggling and some kind of house and family stuff happening.
i feel like the generation of females that has a more fleshed out interest in videogames, because they've been at least included to some extend and through the unisex platform of smartphones, have much more socially accepted contact with videogames in general, is just growing up right now.i mean, i've been to school at a time where every boy had videogame consoles while more than half the girls in class never even played a videogame (and showed no interest in trying either, whether because they actually didn't care at all, or because the idea of videogames being a boy thing had been so deeply ingrained, they felt like admitting to want to try was kinda wrong, the same way boys would rarely admit or try playing with dolls that werent disguised as action figures, i cant say)
as the next 10 years go by and that generation grows up, there will be a lot more demand coming from the female userbase and the companies that dabble in videogames will have to react to them. things will absolutely change, the catering to the male gamer will be pulled back some, thats for sure and i personally don't mind whatsoever
of course, in recent years, females have become more of a target, but companies try to woo them going with the most superficial stereotypes (cooking mama and super princess 'i'm emotionally instable' peach' etc) so i absolutely understand the growing anger towards the status quo from female audiences.
thing is, when everything is said and done, this kind of marketing is also the reason why less females have the same level of obsessive interest in videogames.
instead of simply making the existing games more inclusive (with a female hero choice for example, that's not going to be chosen by guys because a thinly clad ass will wiggle in front of them for the big save the world adventure) they try to sell them the same bull thats been sold to them for decades -girls need ponies and giggling and some kind of house and family stuff happening.
i feel like the generation of females that has a more fleshed out interest in videogames, because they've been at least included to some extend and through the unisex platform of smartphones, have much more socially accepted contact with videogames in general, is just growing up right now.i mean, i've been to school at a time where every boy had videogame consoles while more than half the girls in class never even played a videogame (and showed no interest in trying either, whether because they actually didn't care at all, or because the idea of videogames being a boy thing had been so deeply ingrained, they felt like admitting to want to try was kinda wrong, the same way boys would rarely admit or try playing with dolls that werent disguised as action figures, i cant say)
as the next 10 years go by and that generation grows up, there will be a lot more demand coming from the female userbase and the companies that dabble in videogames will have to react to them. things will absolutely change, the catering to the male gamer will be pulled back some, thats for sure and i personally don't mind whatsoever
if you want to cite statistics, cite the fucking statistic please.
people oppress. i seriously doubt that there's more violent humans among females than among males, meaning there's a ridiculously high chance whatever statistic you pulled that tidbit from reeks of bad study design from miles away.
just because xth generation feminism in america has degraded to nonsense doesn't automatically mean that xth generation gender discrimination isnt a thing anymore though. the sad part being that there'd still be more than enough issues a serious feminism could tackle. few of it is specific male oppression. but a lot of it is simply institutionalized leftovers of the times when it was still a thing. you put a new coat of color on a rusty bike, the think will still be rotten below the surface.
yes, the wage gap is the result of men being more likely to be in full time employment. but why is man more likely to be fulltime employee? because women are still more likely to be pressured to be the housekeeper in a family, to take care of children in a family, to put a career on hold for that and never be able to catch up afterwards. because there's still very much a bias in the way a career man and a career woman are perceived by society. one is seen as positive, the other as negative. and as social creatures, that does have a tremendous effect on the way we live our life.
and yes, with gender bias came the occassional positive for females, no doubt.
the way that we as a society still have a problem to understand females as anything but victims, to have such a hard time to imagine women raping children and stuff like that. but we're also working on that. in recent decades, more and more women have been fined or put to jail for violence and abuse. and once men become more comfortable with actually calling in being physically or sexually abused by their female partners, these statistics will continue to even out.
thats the way you as a male perceive it. because you, as well as most other males, are uncomfortable with the thought of controlling magic mike fighting the forces of evil, you call it hilarious.
its way easier to please a male audience with a sexualized female character (the opposite is true as well, though admittedly, sexualized males for female audience tend to be a bit more subtle than sexualized females for male audiences=
being objective though, sexualized heroines are nothing but hilarious and i can guarantee you, hilarious is probably the word of choice when you have women describe the sexy female hero characters of our generations. going to battle wearing basically a swimsuit. the mightiest heroine carries around giant jugs and makes no attempt to at least wear something to give them enough stability to not be in the way at every single second of the adventure. of course, she also has long, beautifully flowing hair, that no one ever grabs and uses against her too.
instead of using her swords to fight tactically and clever, she makes a point to stretch her body into unnecessary poses, opening herself widely to attacks, just to make sure you as the player notice that she could just jump into a hustle photo shot and do a good job.
oh and of course, despite barely being 110 pounds without any discernible muscles or anything, her short sword sends 300 pound thiefs flying with every hit. (course, at times, thats true for male heroes as well)
Last edited by Clydefrosch,
attacking mario because of the role of peach was the low of feminist movement against videogames ...
no respect for them only because of that!!!!
(i respect REAL feminists that fight against abuses everyday and support women around the world)
no respect for them only because of that!!!!
(i respect REAL feminists that fight against abuses everyday and support women around the world)
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On an unrelated note: with an influx of single mothers, a female teacher dominance in schools and basically the entirety of a child's early life being female dominant (and with any male interacting with kids, it's almost always considered that he's a pedophile, EVEN when it's the child's father); What does it say about us with ALL of this female exclusive experience that we still consider ourselves sexist? Do you really think games contribute to sexism more than a childhood built up mostly from female interactions?
And we don't know how many actually advocate feminist points (we know not all).
And if they were, it does not mean there would be an influx of market potential.
NEXT
This does a total of jack and shit to help prevent rape and sexual abuse. In fact, it adds to it. A damaged individual will do things regardless of if they know it's right or wrong.
TARGETING A PROFILE OF THE INNOCENT DOES NOT MAKE PERPETRATORS EASIER TO CATCH.
As for collectives of people based on a very minor percentage, why?
You realize that women rape men in a VERY comparable number to vice versa right (unless you go by self selected)? Oh, I'm sorry, it's not "rape", it's "made to penetrate" because men are "ambivalent about their desires" when they get held down against their will by someone. Or forced to at gun point. Or what have you. Thanks Mary Koss.
Or perhaps we should take something that women almost exclusively: infanticide. Yet somehow we have the good sense to NOT think all women kill their children because we're at least RATIONAL IN MIND.
Let me take you to an absurd level of that logic: Some women are transwomen, therefore we should think all women are transwomen?
Yeah, no.
Now insert that with any other demographic. Sounds wrong right? Bigoted? Presumptuous?
Although as for sexist, I suppose everything is.
And you're absolutely correct, Feminism isn't political radicalism, it's rather mainstream at this point. It's been for a very long while.
As for "really easy not to be sexist", I dunno.
NEXT
Domestic violence is equal, ie: gender parity.
http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
http://www.mediaradar.org/docs/Dutton_GenderParadigmInDV-Pt1.pdf
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf
Sadly these statistics do have a very minor problem ;^; it treats men and women equally in asking instead of asking men how they abused and women how they were abused.
But you're not wrong I guess, they're about as violent as each other.
That aside, let me list some other possibilities as to why men are more likely to be fulltime employee; the increase of single mothers relying on child support, the myth that women are earned less making justification for that... err... "pressure" (because clearly it would be logical to have the one who earns more money do the work for the sake of family, right? ). Being given more choice in what they want to do.
And stop telling men they are at fault for being hurt by women
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Probs shouldn't assume :/ but then, what does gender matter at all to discussion?
Point I was trying to get across was that by comparison, you need something HIGHLY overt happen to men before people will acknowledge it was "sexualizing", whereas doing so for a female character seems so easy it's laughably absurd. Sorry for not being clear enough.
Isn't that essentially what all game do? To both male and female characters? Or do you think the majority walk around with an intense amount of steroids, that requires cardboard cover to protect from a bullet allergy and difficulty using spoons?
And I'd extend an olive branch in saying male treatment isn't any less sexist. In a nearly identical vein. Larger murder, overly unrealistic body expectations, elements of male expendability.
82% this year don't. And that number has been getting smaller and smaller.
And we don't know how many actually advocate feminist points (we know not all).
And if they were, it does not mean there would be an influx of market potential.
Well if a company ends up selling a slanted base towards ketchup and don't sell their horseradish product as much (or at all), and can stay afloat with profit from selling ketchup, there's no reason to further expand horseradish unless they can project a reason to make a further profit, after market, product, and production research; then, after assessing the start up costs, risks and can actually better attempt to fill that market niche, there's no reason they should, nor do they have any obligation to do so.
I tend to agree with this.
NEXT
Considering what women DO actually have to go through, having plane policy, kindergarten employment policy, primary school policy, basically ANYTHING to do with kids in employment or in the home, domestic abuse policy and more; This whole image problem of men being predatory and toxic to the point where instead of targeting the population (ie; psychopaths and sociopaths) being the perpetrator (and repeat perpetrators at that; And yes, same applies to women predators), you end up with stuff like the University of Warwick having compulsory consent classes.
This does a total of jack and shit to help prevent rape and sexual abuse. In fact, it adds to it. A damaged individual will do things regardless of if they know it's right or wrong.
TARGETING A PROFILE OF THE INNOCENT DOES NOT MAKE PERPETRATORS EASIER TO CATCH.
As for collectives of people based on a very minor percentage, why?
You realize that women rape men in a VERY comparable number to vice versa right (unless you go by self selected)? Oh, I'm sorry, it's not "rape", it's "made to penetrate" because men are "ambivalent about their desires" when they get held down against their will by someone. Or forced to at gun point. Or what have you. Thanks Mary Koss.
Or perhaps we should take something that women almost exclusively: infanticide. Yet somehow we have the good sense to NOT think all women kill their children because we're at least RATIONAL IN MIND.
Let me take you to an absurd level of that logic: Some women are transwomen, therefore we should think all women are transwomen?
Yeah, no.
All black people commit majority of crime, now I'm not saying all are poison, but maybe (insert massively exaggerated statistic here) percent. Would you stick your hand in and have some? Probs not- FLAWLESS LOGIC
Now insert that with any other demographic. Sounds wrong right? Bigoted? Presumptuous?
Although as for sexist, I suppose everything is.
I respectfully disagree. I have yet to see a third wave feminist issue that isn't a giant misconception, or outright lazy in it's statistics or execution.
Is kinda cute though.
If anything, it's more like "men > women, liek, oh em gee, women have like, so much wurst, you big strong men are so powerful *swoon*" but let's not split hairs. I'm happy to sit down and listen, but just the same, I'm going to question everything I've heard.
And you're absolutely correct, Feminism isn't political radicalism, it's rather mainstream at this point. It's been for a very long while.
What's wrong with being offended? >_> like really, you're offended. So what? Should I go out and say "Freedom of speech is not a get out of jail for free card for making me laugh/cry/feel ANYTHING I didn't want to"?
As for "really easy not to be sexist", I dunno.
NEXT
Aww, but that's so sexist of you to assume~
Domestic violence is equal, ie: gender parity.
http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
http://www.mediaradar.org/docs/Dutton_GenderParadigmInDV-Pt1.pdf
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf
Sadly these statistics do have a very minor problem ;^; it treats men and women equally in asking instead of asking men how they abused and women how they were abused.
But you're not wrong I guess, they're about as violent as each other.
Since I gave you the courtesy of sources, would you be willing to name me a few?
I suppose firstly, you'd be happy to know that young women (between 18 and 30) are now out earning their male counter parts.
That aside, let me list some other possibilities as to why men are more likely to be fulltime employee; the increase of single mothers relying on child support, the myth that women are earned less making justification for that... err... "pressure" (because clearly it would be logical to have the one who earns more money do the work for the sake of family, right? ). Being given more choice in what they want to do.
While we're at it I can't wait for them to stop arresting males first and abandon the feminist instituted duluth model for handling domestic .
And stop telling men they are at fault for being hurt by women
.Uhh. I'm female.
Checked, still female
Apologies though, that movie doesn't really interest me. Still female though
Probs shouldn't assume :/ but then, what does gender matter at all to discussion?Point I was trying to get across was that by comparison, you need something HIGHLY overt happen to men before people will acknowledge it was "sexualizing", whereas doing so for a female character seems so easy it's laughably absurd. Sorry for not being clear enough.
Try; justified as "not the same" or "not actually harmful sexualization" or any myriad of excuses.
Sounds like an entertaining read, link me some pls.
Um is nobody else attracted to the man from doom? He could like...rip me in half- in a good way
Not the majority actually, studies showed that only a 15% of the total people in your country is actually legitimate black, most of the crimes are done by people from White race, hell, some studies proved that a "White" person is more able to betray and shoot everyone on their way that a black person, not saying that the latter can't, but is more probable to do so.
https://gadflyonthewallblog.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/why-are-black-people-so-nonviolent/
The charts say that in the crime reports, while Black People has it big shares of crimes, it didn't mention (that clear at least) that people from the other race, were also sharing a big part, and not only that, they were more probable to attack people from the same race and black people, so in conclusion, there isn't a "massively exaggerated statistic here" since if that were the case, both races have that, in a way or another, but remember that White people were killing a lot even before Black People were introduced.
I know this is kinda off-topic, but i just wanted to make it clear, while i'm not living nor i don't know a lot about your country, since you know, i was never there, i'm from fuckin Sri Lanka, with brown skin instead of black or white, so, i'm practically in the most neutral position possible, but if you're gonna say something, at least say it with some books or pages as references when it comes to anything you say.
Lastly, just to avoid going to other branches, I say that videogames are well, videogames, you can make a piece of shit game being starred by a man, and a incredible masterpiece being starred by a Woman and viceversa, in the end, it's now if the protagonist is male or female, is if the fucking game is good, and how it passes the test of time compared to the many games is going to be released.
Example, Metroid passed the test of time, since it has well and interestingly designed 2D segments, with fun elements, and is an excellent series overall, but as Metroid could, Super Castlevania IV also did that, with it's smooth gameplay and excellent music, every game has it's own way to tell things, and in the end, it's the gameplay what makes a videogame, some people might care for the characters used, but i just don't care, female or male, I'll play it and then say if the game is worth of my time or not.
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For the record, I wasn't serious; was basically going off a stereotype as a means of hyperbole. Basically a stereotype hyperbole countered with another stereotype hyperbole. Intent was to show how absurd the line of thinking is.
My apologies for not making that more clear, and thank you for the link
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That is not what the study showed. It's what one random blogger suggested in your linked article, but Wordpress isn't exactly the most reputable news source in America
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
Check out this official DoJ report showing African Americans accounting for 52% of homicide offenders, despite them only accounting for 13% of the population
Fantastic.
Here's some other interesting articles on race and crime with a somewhat different viewpoint :
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime/19439
http://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/new-doj-statistics-on-race-and-violent-crime/
I myself wouldn't pin the statistics on race, but poverty - and unfortunately poverty and violence tend to be cyclic.
It also depends on how a person is raised, you can have the nicest Black person in the world alongside with the most violent white person, and viceversa, I was just pointing statistics, this also changes depends on the State itself, if you were going to Canada, the stereotype against the Black is far much harsher, and most of the crimes in there are from White people as well.
Some articles may not agree with this, and others yes, but people, no matter the race (If it's Black, White, Brown, etc.) all should be treated with equal respect, and sadly, the lack of respect is what may lead future battles and wars in the future.
Exactly, for example- Barack Obama is a great African American man (obviously) but he never exactly spent time inside a public school as a child.
Bingo, and impoverished Americans have this really bad habit of rampant anti-intellectualism despite our 'no child left behind' educational system
edit: wait what was this thread about??
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Meh, I'm on hiatus, the thread can go anywhere it wants this week as long as its actually discussion and not shitposting (and I can easily see how it transitioned from one subject to the next). I would rather it stay on videogames for the sake of the topic but for this week I'm not too concerned about it
I chose option #2 because gaming is still fairly male dominated although not nearly as much as it used to be. Also, I think some people get offended way too easily over female characters in sexy outfits along with other stuff that's present in the entire entertainment industry.(using sex as a selling point) There are so many things in the world that are genuinely offensive that I find the issue of sexism in gaming to be insignificant, and quite frankly if polygonal women in sexy outfits offends you, your skin is way too thin. I'm not saying there's zero sexism in gaming but I think a lot of people exploit this issue to get attention. I don't wanna give this woman publicity but there's a woman whose first name starts with an A that exemplifies the type of disgusting attention whoring and sensationalism I find disgusting.
Last edited by Hungry Friend,
There are a few ways of looking at this "issue", and as a heads up I don't view it as an issue at all. I usually split sexism in games down the middle between the marketing and the games themselves and begin with the question: "Is there sexism in video games?"
Yes. Yes there is. But like any reasonable person can point out, there's sexism everywhere. Sex (ism) sells because there's a wide swath of industries that panders to one half of the gene pool over the others. Ever see men represented in maternity ads? No. Because that market is made up of women and some transgendered people.
How about something more specific like... romance anything. That's because they pander to women who are the main share of the market. That's sexist, but is it an issue? You decide.
In video games, the demographic is mainly male for most big named titles. Some compaines make games that pander to their vast majority male demo. Most women don't seem to have an issue with that. Many prefer it because who doesn't like looking at visually pleasing character models?
Where the true issue lies is in the people who play the game itself. I refer to them as the verbal minority. They're the people who say nasty shit to someone just because they're a hormonal pubescent who isn't taught proper manners. In this case, the problem is not with the game itself, but with the people who have free access to games.
That's where the true problem arises, and is coincidentally why a REPORT and MUTE button actually exists. Harassment is never okay and everyone should acknowledge that. But for the imaginary problem people see in a fictional narrative? No, there's a wide variety of fiction in video games and just because a story doesn't pander to your sensibilities, doesn't mean it's sexist or racist or transphobic or homophobic or humanphobic. Video games aren't raising an army of misogynistic fuckboys, bad or non-existient parenting is. Games generally provide an uplifting message when it comes to females, and with plenty of non-shoehorned female protagonists you can find without a magnifying glass, I'd say most games do a swell job at being diverse even if there's always room for improvement.
Yes. Yes there is. But like any reasonable person can point out, there's sexism everywhere. Sex (ism) sells because there's a wide swath of industries that panders to one half of the gene pool over the others. Ever see men represented in maternity ads? No. Because that market is made up of women and some transgendered people.
How about something more specific like... romance anything. That's because they pander to women who are the main share of the market. That's sexist, but is it an issue? You decide.
In video games, the demographic is mainly male for most big named titles. Some compaines make games that pander to their vast majority male demo. Most women don't seem to have an issue with that. Many prefer it because who doesn't like looking at visually pleasing character models?
Where the true issue lies is in the people who play the game itself. I refer to them as the verbal minority. They're the people who say nasty shit to someone just because they're a hormonal pubescent who isn't taught proper manners. In this case, the problem is not with the game itself, but with the people who have free access to games.
That's where the true problem arises, and is coincidentally why a REPORT and MUTE button actually exists. Harassment is never okay and everyone should acknowledge that. But for the imaginary problem people see in a fictional narrative? No, there's a wide variety of fiction in video games and just because a story doesn't pander to your sensibilities, doesn't mean it's sexist or racist or transphobic or homophobic or humanphobic. Video games aren't raising an army of misogynistic fuckboys, bad or non-existient parenting is. Games generally provide an uplifting message when it comes to females, and with plenty of non-shoehorned female protagonists you can find without a magnifying glass, I'd say most games do a swell job at being diverse even if there's always room for improvement.
I really don't see why it even matters. Its just a game. Its entertainment and its all for fun. Rather than flipping our shit over the arrangement of some pixels why can't we just enjoy the games and focus on the actual quality of the product rather than wasting our time getting offended. Some people are bound to like these types of designs and others will inevitably dislike them. What somebody enjoys is their business and I see no reason in complaining that a product is being designed for a different audience. If you don't care for a product, don't buy it. If enough people agree with you then it will simply be discontinued. However, chances are lots of other people do enjoy the product as it is and thats their right. Rather than complaining about it, why not let those people enjoy their product and find one more suited for your tastes. if it doesn't exist, why not try finding a way to create it. Chances are there are other people looking for something similar to what you want. It just seems like such a waste of time to me to get all bent out of shape over something so stupid when you could just enjoy the games.
I think the problem most girls see is in multiplayer games where the only choice for their avatars are super sexualized females or unrealistically proportioned males, and the harassment that ensues from choosing either (either "why are you pretending to be a guy bitch" or "those boobs would be good for taking my sword, if you know what I mean ")
")
Last edited by TotalInsanity4,
The multiplayer behavior isn't the games problem though, its the people playing. Pretty much everyone I know doesn't give a shit if the other player is a male or female, they just play the game. Dipshits are everywhere, you just have to deal with them.
I would agree with you, but female gamers are definitely on the rise and game devs continue to model their female characters in more and more unrealistic ways to attract male gamers, which can be both off-putting to the female demographic they're ignoring and mildly dangerous to people (both male and female) who think that those body types are "ideal."
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