Hacking Can Gateway sue clone makers?

FearItSelf23

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I could sue you for making this thread if you want a literal answer. If you are asking if they have grounds to win? Well did they patent it? Probably not and even if they did patents like that are easy to get around just by using slight differences in hardware. Also no offense to the gateway team but flashcard companies are basically scum by nature. So who cares? Clones are a good thing for us as it means another team can undercut them and get us the same damn thing for less.

Also all this "clones are Chinese crap" type comments I've seen is just silly. The gateway it's Chinese crap too. What matters in the long run is if the device stays supported. Who cares if someone like R4 clones it because if they are able to keep it supported and support it better and cheaper than Gateway then they have the superior product.
 

FAST6191

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To sue someone, Gateway needs to have an enforceable patent. Can Gateway even get a patent? Nope. Not even a chance. Nintendo will sue Gateway before it ever happens.

There are more types of IP than patents. You have a copyright on code you write (assuming you are the originator of the code or owner of the original code, also several other factors* which might trouble doing it here in some countries), if the clone companies then took Gateway's code they would be in violation of Gateway's copyright to their code, this does include modding it a bit.
The chances of Gateway being able to do anything about this as far as getting a lawyer in and suing someone are slim to none courtesy of practical considerations (people being based in or working through China, questionable legal status in a lot of places and even if they managed it the lawyer bill would probably eat all or more of the winnings that could be extracted....).

What tends to happen in flash cart world if they find a means to detect the clone cards and then make their updated software not work on them. As the clone companies probably do not have the required engineering talent to make their own updates the clone cart lacks support and people tend not to buy them any more.

*depending upon the person you are speaking to they have included most of the 3DS firmware in their firmware and may actually be using it as functional code rather than a key, the initial hack as an opening might be an issue but it might not, it is actually a fairly untested part of copyright law as far as I am aware.
 

FearItSelf23

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Fast6191, yes if they are using the same exact code. If they just reverse engineered the code though then no that doesn't fall under copyright. They very well may be using the same exploit but an exploit also doesn't fall under copyright. All they'd have to do is figure out the exploit then right their own code to utilize it.
 

FAST6191

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Fast6191, yes if they are using the same exact code. If they just reverse engineered the code though then no that doesn't fall under copyright. They very well may be using the same exploit but an exploit also doesn't fall under copyright. All they'd have to do is figure out the exploit then right their own code to utilize it.

True, assuming they reverse engineered it cleanroom style and did not just feed it into a disassembler or they otherwise arrived at the same hack/exploit. Chances of that happening in these circles is not so high though.
 

WulfyStylez

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*depending upon the person you are speaking to they have included most of the 3DS firmware in their firmware and may actually be using it as functional code rather than a key, the initial hack as an opening might be an issue but it might not, it is actually a fairly untested part of copyright law as far as I am aware.
True, assuming they reverse engineered it cleanroom style and did not just feed it into a disassembler or they otherwise arrived at the same hack/exploit. Chances of that happening in these circles is not so high though.

Their exploits (installed to DS NVRAM) are identical, all they did was change a few things in the launcher. Likely to support their specific cart hardware or to tweak the obfuscation Launcher.dat uses (likely both).
 

FearItSelf23

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True, assuming they reverse engineered it cleanroom style and did not just feed it into a disassembler or they otherwise arrived at the same hack/exploit. Chances of that happening in these circles is not so high though.


Thing is gateway can't "own" an exploit. Exploits become public knowledge and then anyone can run with it. Now they may have found the exploit by using Gateway's software but that really doesn't matter because now they know the exploit and no one can do anything about that. If they just changed a string in gateway's software then yeah gateway could maybe win against that but they can't win against someone else using the same exploit to run their own software.

Though I have to say suing over flashcart clones would be just silly. I doubt that would go anywhere and all that would happen is 9 more chinese companies would start selling more clones.
 

NTA

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Gateway put a lot of hard work of several months and their card is blatantly cloned. What's the legal option for them? Shouldn't they sue the clone making companies for stealing their work?

I mean how Apple did Samsung.
Piracy has it's consequences. That's how these things go, and it's a continuous process in basically all of the scenes
 

jrr6415sun

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Gateway put a lot of hard work of several months and their card is blatantly cloned. What's the legal option for them? Shouldn't they sue the clone making companies for stealing their work?

I mean how Apple did Samsung.


seriously? And the developers that make games that gateway allows to be played for free didn't spend several years making games to be blatantly cloned??
 

FAST6191

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Thing is gateway can't "own" an exploit. Exploits become public knowledge and then anyone can run with it. Now they may have found the exploit by using Gateway's software but that really doesn't matter because now they know the exploit and no one can do anything about that. If they just changed a string in gateway's software then yeah gateway could maybe win against that but they can't win against someone else using the same exploit to run their own software.

Though I have to say suing over flashcart clones would be just silly. I doubt that would go anywhere and all that would happen is 9 more chinese companies would start selling more clones.


I was referring to the code, not the exploit.

seriously? And the developers that make games that gateway allows to be played for free didn't spend several years making games to be blatantly cloned??

Assuming again we are in a country where flash carts are not a banned item (and it is no small number, said number also counting several countries with well developed and respected IP law systems) then such things also get the full weight of legal protection for their devices. Thanks to the arrangements used by flash cart companies said full weight might not count for much, as was discussed previously, and I would also not be surprised to see them encounter unforeseeable difficulties (the letter, the spirit and what a judge will do are three different things after all*) but it is theoretically there.

*terms like "substantial non infringing uses" get thrown about at this point, the gateway may fail this where other similar types of devices may pass.
 

Chaldron

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This thread should win the Darwin award....Seriously. Is a pirate flashcart company going to come out and sue another for cloning their illicit product? Not gonna happen. Especially not in the USA... :P


And they would probably have to sue in China anyway because that's where most of the clones are located, and good luck getting a Chinese court to accept your case!
 

mr. fancypants

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The only thing that Gateway did was build on an already public 3DS exploit. Keeping in mind that the flashcart only exists to serve up the contents of an SD card to the console and isn't in any way special, all they've got going for them is their hack.

To put it this way, if I were to develop and release a jailbreak for iOS and start selling it, would I be able to sue people who took my code and released it for free or cheaper? No. Not really.



offtopic dude your avatar is uber cool

actually creating and running the exploit is free ( GW exploit opener ROM and opening it at ds settings) but to run the .3ds file you need the red cart
 

Saturosias

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I think staying away from clones that offer literally nothing new is all well and good, but the fact that there are now fanboys for a cartridge designed solely for the implicit purpose of piracy is just absurd. How does it affect you if there are other flash cartridges? Are you now forced to buy them? No, just stick with your Gateway. If they really are "top-notch developers" then they should be able to implement their own anti-piracy-piracy, and if not, nobody loses anything by there being cheaper products on the market.
 

Arras

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Developers are rich people, so it doesn't matter?
I'm not sure if you're trolling or actually serious, but not all of them are. Sure, pirating Pokemon will hardly matter in the grand scheme of things, but some studios create games that don't sell that well. If you like these games, it would be a shame to see the publisher behind them deciding to give up on them because their games just don't sell well enough.
 

FAST6191

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for a cartridge designed solely for the implicit purpose of piracy is just absurd.

There have been homebrew focused carts in the past, about the only thing of note about them though is there were occasions where you could get them in big real world shops.
 

Amber Lamps

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You'd have to see how law in China works. If team gateway paid the judge in Shenzhen (or Guangzhou), they could bribe him enough to fine the other party. That is pretty much how it works there with counterfeit goods.

Likewise if you run your own Rolex factory and then the swiss roll in with lawyers (they do this sometimes, actually Cartier set up an office and had 2 lawyers working in it in Shenzhen at one point and yes I know Cartier is not affiliated to Rolex but I'm talking about watches here ok) and they quelled cartier stuff. Once they were gone, guess what happens. Ramp up production of Cartier again and sell it somewhere else. However with respect to the law (I know this paragraph is getting jumbled here now but I'm not writing an English report), if you make Rolex watches and someone comes in there and presents a case to the judge, all the Rolex counterfeiter dude (the guy with the big solid cherrywood desk and fish tank and sexy Chinese secretaries that heads the watch factory) has to do is bribe the judge with a whole bunch of ca$h and then the judge will dismiss the case and the guys from Rolex eventually leave. The judge may even look like Rolex won just to get them the fuck out of there and then the dude who makes the watches just goes back to his desk and makes more money. That is how they ROLL THERE so you can't really fuck with anyone if they have money and believe me Gateway team has FAR more money than Joe Schmo (Ching Chow) that sells fake Gateway products. Mark my words on that. If Gateway gets sued by another counterfeiter in China, the other guy will lose plain and simple. It's not gonna happen.

And plus to this effect, those whom believe that the Chinese Maphia, the Triads, the Tongs, the Dragons, etc there's a big ass list of them, are involved in producing counterfeit cards. That isn't true. Chinese gangsters are into gambling and prostitution. They could give a shit less about counterfeit flash carts because there's more effort involved and they would rather grab a lot of loot from gambling which is immensely more profitable. Plus if a woman over there gets in debt at gambling, the mobs basically prostitute the women overseas.

I bring this up because sometimes I see this come up, if people buy fake Nintendo cards they aren't supporting gangs. They're just supporting some electronics engineer that probably is a Chinese citizen and graduated from UC Berkeley California or something. Things like this do happen. The guy making the Gateway supposedly is from France though (no he isn't Costello, costello doesn't do any handhelds stuff whatsoever he just runs a web page).
 

Ericthegreat

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Plus if a woman over there gets in debt at gambling, the mobs basically prostitute the women overseas.

The guy making the Gateway supposedly is from France though (no he isn't Costello, costello doesn't do any handhelds stuff whatsoever he just runs a web page).

Cause generic chinese guys are named Ching Chow right ;)

#1 I dont think that has happened for a very long time. The japanese used to do this as well. (and not just women's debt, they would take a mans wife/daughter to pay of his debts)

#2 Thats what he wants you to think ;)
 

Amber Lamps

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Cause generic chinese guys are named Ching Chow right ;)

#1 I dont think that has happened for a very long time. The japanese used to do this as well. (and not just women's debt, they would take a mans wife/daughter to pay of his debts)

#2 Thats what he wants you to think ;)


#1 I have seen it in Oakland and SF California with my own eyes. Have you ever heard of a place called Macau? It is the same thing as Vegas here. They prostitute white/black/etc women in Vegas here though in contrast (since that is what we got) Although for a different reason: typically women end up there of their own free will and end up getting tied into the underground thug scene.

#2 Costello doesn't game, he teaches and does regular life stuff. That's about it besides maintaining this web site.
 

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