Hacking Last Chance for Sourceflow. "100% Useless" - WiiFlow Dev

spacepimp · Aug 23, 2013

retort thought up in another context several days after conversation:
"Well, to answer your question, I think it's worth it because I use Wiiflow for the scenery and the source menu is like a billboard."

EDIT: Sourceflow is HERE!!!!!! - Everything you need is in Abz's link below -

I'm just going to reproduce Abz's last post on the matter...

AbdallahTerro said:
Carbonic Abz Theme for WiiFlow 4.21 Beta rev1004+ with SourceFlow v1.0
Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2jirafxpb1jq9hz/Carbonic Abz Theme for WiiFlow 4.21 Beta rev1004+ with SourceFlow v1.0.7z

Changelog:
1.theme updated for all new sourceflow stuff in rev 1003
2.Added new "My Plugins" button for custom combination of magics
3.Added new source menu Full cover for ResidualVM-Grim and the new "My Plugins" cover

4.Fixed many cover positions and titles in brewflows

So We now have 3 ways to display the source menu:
A. Classic Source menu (i.e. source menu enabled AND sourceflow option "off")

B.SourceFlow with tiny covers using brewflows (i.e. source menu enabled AND sourceflow option "on" AND use Smallbox "on")

C.SourceFlow with full covers using coverflows (i.e. source menu enabled AND sourceflow option "on" AND use Smallbox "off")

P.S. The file is relatively big since "png" files and not jpg's are used for the Full Sourceflow (72 covers)
This is completely optional and cosmetic, so ppl who are not going to use the sourceflow just need the updated Carbonik Abz.ini file and the latest Wiiflow-Dol

Tips:
Remember that multisouce features only work in classic mode
Also note that classic mode won't use cache files while source flow does
Please be patient and wait for a complete cache build before selecting sources, and launch a game or exit wiiflow to save the settings

Thanks to Fledge68 for this awesome piece of art

P.S. there's still one option "B for Source" that was not added to the source settings page 2 (for the sake of completion an empty spot is available there)

WiiFlow r1004 with alternate wait animation (mine

)

Replace the boot.dol in your apps/wiiflow folder with this one:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/auif1kd8j2aqmes/boot.dol

Definition of Sourceflow and a Draft Specification:

Sourceflow:

A coverflow of covers that represent sources, rather than games.

The sourceflow is designed to be an alternative to the source menu.

The sourceflow is designed to be similar to the rest of wiiflow

The sourceflow will have 3D 'game' covers to represent sources.

The sourceflow will have 3D coverflows inside wiiflow's big 3D space.

In the beginning, the sourceflow will look very like the homebrewflow, and have covers that look very like the sourcemenu buttons.

The sourceflow will function very like the other game flows - users can delete and favourite covers - except:

The sourceflow will allow you to easily select and launch multiple sources, using an on-screen "multi-select" button.

The sourceflow may allow you to move your "source-covers" around to your liking, and order your consoles by category (handheld, 16 bit groups, age, manufacturer etc). Thanks fledge68

spacepimp

OP:

During a discussion with a Wiiflow dev about the possibility of at least trialing a sourceflow - he made it clear that no matter what the concept was, he wouldn't code it or allow it in the main branch because it was, "100% useless".
I have written a lot on this forum (see sig) about why I think a coverflow of sources is a good idea, and I eventually persuaded the developer in question to at least read it, comment on the feasibility of the idea, and consider it for inclusion.
It'll definitely work, I'm still in the drafting stage, but the dev basically wants it right first time or he'll say no. Frankly I need HELP with the terminology and specifics from someone who is at least familiar with how homebrew works, and preferably knows the mechanisms Wiiflow employs to load titles.
Please please PM me. :bow:

EDIT: No one helped - ha!

I'll add some thoughts on why I think a sourceflow is a good idea, but do you love it or hate it?

guinness · Aug 24, 2013

I use the current source menu, and when you first started pushing for sourceflow I was all for it. However since then, I have thought about it, and I think I prefer the source menu as it is. After all, it's a Wii, and the source menu kind of makes it looks like a fancy Wii menu.

I personally much prefer being able to select the system I want from a simple(ish) menu, and then see the lovely flows for the games. The kids know where to find what they want in the source menu, and thanks to Maxternal and his source menu editor, I can set it all up exactly how I like it.

So in summary, no I don't think it's a good idea, and (only my personal opinion) I think you should give up on it.

spacepimp · Aug 24, 2013

Irrelevant but amusing exposure of guinness being a bit...sly:

guinness said:
I use the current source menu, and when you first started pushing for sourceflow I was all for it...So in summary, no I don't think it's a good idea, and (only my personal opinion) I think you should give up on it.

Thanks for that considered reply, and thanks for letting your preferences be known. I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say it looks like a fancy wii menu - that's why I think it's a poor second to having a coverflow, why it destroys the illusion of space, and why it let's down the wiiflow experience. As far as finding things more easily - i don't agree - but if you find things more easily in a 2d page menu than in a coverflow, why bother with coverflows at all? Just have a fancy 2d page menu for everything - as possible with gx and postloader - postloader is faster too!
Also, hats off to mr maxternal!

p.s. I am giving up on it - this is the "Last Chance" - clue's in the title

Oh, you're that guinness

guinness said:
Fix, overjoy, and indeed many others have worked hard over time to bring you a great piece of software absolutely free. If you really want a particular feature, then ask nicely, don't open a thread to criticise them. The source code is available, so if you want a change, do it yourself, otherwise wait patiently, and they may or may not do it. It's their baby, so they will do with it as they wish. If you're feeling ignored, it may be because you're being annoying, so go and cry elsewhere.

It's just when you said "when you first started pushing for sourceflow I was all for it" - that bit wasn't strictly true, was it?

only joshing, what what.

EDIT: Please see MassiveRican's refinement below.
Sourceflow's Last Gasp:

Proposed mechanism for how sourceflow might work and the case for bothering to code it.
A.K.A. Me, Begging

I'm not asking that this work be done immediately. A Finalised 4.1.5 would be a better source, and a better comparison for the sourceflow beta, and that work must take priority.(EDIT ENDS) I am not asking for a complete change in the way wiiflow runs. I am asking that we collectively try this little experiment to see if this idea works, and make it available to see whether people like it. If people like it, it would be nice to add these small changes as options in the the main body of wiiflow.
I'm not asking for a whole new coverflow, i'm asking for 2 relatively small changes to the code.

1 - the 'b' button would instead launch a the sourceflow of 3D covers to launch Sources
2 - wiiflow would have to write and read a new argument.

What is the process?
From the sourceflow, a user presses 'A' on the example cover, NOT64.
As usual with booting a game from an emuflow, an argument is created. Although in this instance, the argument indicates a coverflow, not an emu game.
The dol launcher in mem2 stores the argument, closes wiiflow, and start the plugin.dol. Except, in this instance, the plugin dol is not an emulator, it is in /apps/wiiflow/boot.dol, or (a copy) wiiflow.dol in the plugins folder. i.e. It is wiiflow itself.
Wiiflow launches, and at the point before it retrieves the last booted game, in order to load the relevant coverflow, it first checks for the argument. If it sees something, such as the argument indicating the NOT64 coverflow, it loads that instead.
Thus users can change plugins from a 3D sourceflow as quickly as a wiiflow restart.

The User Experience.

Users press 'B' to launch the sourceflow. While not as quick to launch as the 2D page source menu, launching a new coverflow is sub 1.5 seconds, probably quicker - near instantaneous. There are potential ways even to mitigate this - loading and hiding the source covers alongside the currently viewed games coverflow, and alternating which covers are hidden using 'B' might be quicker still. There are even artistic possibilities for animating the transition between coverflow and sourceflow.

Actually launching a new coverflow will take longer than using the current source menu, because wiiflow has to actually restart. To misquote FIX94, "wiiflow boots pretty darn fast". Bear in mind, also, that much of wiiflow's start time is taken up loading the coverflow you would've had to load anyway!
In time, efficiencies might well develop in the process, as you're loading the same dol, there maybe workarounds to avoid completely flushing and reloading wiiflow into memory. Or a completely different way of doing things might well speed things up to the point were switching to a new coverlflow takes no longer than the current source menu

If it takes even one one hundredth of a second longer, and needs only 5 lines of code, why bother?

Wiflow uses the same game artwork as the other loaders, but it's a more pleasant experience simply because of the big, beautiful 3 dimensional space you're using to browse your games. Unfortunately, this competition-beating illusion of space is destroyed whenever you 'go up one level' to pick another source.

Currently the source menu is a multi page 2D menu of icons. Most importantly it's functional, and real effort has been made to make it beautiful, but even the most well designed 2D icon menu in the universe will always look a bit pathetic put next to a coverflow.

So my question in return is, in software that's WOW-factor is the beauty of the interface, and this beautiful gorgeous interface is available to use, right there, why have a 2D page menu you have to use all the time ?

Initially, I would suggest that Abz's default covers could be used. Potentially, source covers could be standardised, international variations could be implemented (e.g. ntsc=genesis, pal=megadrive etc.) and replicated on GameTDB, and wiiflow could then download the covers internally - add the capacity to delete titles (already available in emuflows) and the source menu would finally become an indistinguishable, seamless part of a wholly 3D wiiflow, and without all the extra config, palava and hassle required for the current 2D multipage icon menu.

None of the wiiflow developers use the sourcemenu to navigate through wiiflow, and frankly, don't want to work on this. A cited argument against it is that
"Coverflows should be kept for games"
crossing this metaphysical barrier between game titles and the consoles that run them does not sit comfortably (see post above). I understand, but I would counter that people use wiiflow because the space is beautiful. Fix sees the sourceflow as an extra, a fancy topping and more work for something the devs don't even use. I see it as finally integrating the source menu into wiiflow.

If you want to see at least an experimental source flow, now is the time to say so.

A non-active wiiflow developer who prefers not to be named has kindly told me that this will work, and would take an experienced wiiflow coder 1 to 2 hours to implement. I'm just waiting on fix's reply. night night!

Actually, I'd prefer 'Strongly arguing the case for' or 'Pleading for Sanity' instead of 'Begging', but if it walks like a Duck...

VashTS · Aug 25, 2013

you probably could copy paste most of the code. i'm no programmer, but i'd assume you would change the source menu code with a coverflow code.

i don't see how it would be any better than what we have, but meh i wish you good luck!

macmanhigh · Aug 25, 2013

I got my fingers crossed this always sounded like an awesome idea

AbdallahTerro · Aug 25, 2013

Maybe in Wiiflow 5

spacepimp · Aug 25, 2013

AbdallahTerro said:
Maybe in Wiiflow 5

not 4.5 !?!?!!

VashTS said:
you probably could copy paste most of the code. i'm no programmer, but i'd assume you would change the source menu code with a coverflow code.

i don't see how it would be any better than what we have, but meh i wish you good luck!

I'm really interested in asking why you think it would not be any better than what we have? Could you expand on that?

The question of developer priorities has been raised on the main thread. i.e. That there's always plenty to do, and there are more important jobs out there.
I'd just like to add this:

I understand that there are always going to be priorities that have to be decided upon, and people are always going to have different priorities but - would point out that I have been pushing for this for over a year, and a lot of wiiflow development has passed in that time. This not about an optional fancy finish, a cherry on the top - this is about the source menu catching up with the rest of wiiflow and finally, seamlessly, fitting in.
EDIT: I would again repeat : The completed Wiiflow (main) next revision must take priority, and will only serve as a more stable and useful comparison for the sourceflow mod.

drakorex · Aug 25, 2013

I can understand how Source Flow would be aesthetically pleasing, but I can also understand how unless the coverflow is a grid, that it would take longer to find the source you want.

spacepimp · Aug 25, 2013

drakorex said:
I can understand how Source Flow would be aesthetically pleasing, but I can also understand how unless the coverflow is a grid, that it would take longer to find the source you want.

That's true of sources, but then it's also true of games - why have a coverflow at all? I would also point out that coverflows have other advantages, in that you can display many more titles per page (coverflows go up to what, 7x5?) and you also have letter quick-scrolling.
Still, a valid point, thanks.

MassiveRican · Aug 25, 2013

This has always been an aesthetically pleasing idea, you already hit all the positive points on why this would be cool, I'll give a bit more perspective on how this could be implemented if the devs feel like tackling it on, and what could be done with SourceFlow to please users with many plugins like myself, or simplify the vision.

For someone like myself and Abz for example that have many plugins (6 pages at 12 plugins each) it can feel like a step backward having to scroll through 72+ covers to find the source you want, so I offer some ideas:

One proposed solution would be to somehow implement a favorites system which would allow to show your most often used plugins, turn favorites off and all the plugins can be seen.
**Drakorex brought up a great point and an awesome comment "Unless the coverflow is a grid". IMHO, I think there is a way to please current Source Menu users with a SourceFlow and not make things more difficult with a favorites plugin system. Make the SourceFlow home screen in smallbox view like Homebrew with a grid view of 8 - 12 plugins per page, not only would it still be 3D but most of the current SM icons could probably be used once tweaked. Now I know Drakorex is very skilled at coverflows and is possible he could make that flow a reality.**
Lastly WiiFlow has always been about options, about molding itself to the needs and styles of many. So why not keep both the Source Menu and SourceFlow, easily turn it on/off with an .ini option or as a config option within WiiFlow itself. This offers another alternative where you can keep a Source Menu with many plugins (more advanced) and a SourceFlow with just a few covers (simplified for kids or favorite plugins in a sense).

You have a huge passion for this spacepimp obviously seen by your never give up attitude, and it shows that you love WiiFlow as much as anyone else.

P.S. To all users let's remeber to donate, not saying this will help chances of making this a reality, but at the very least it shows our willingness to help in contributing to the team, and besides devs can use all the support they can get and it shows we appreciate their time and effort spent on this project when they themselves have little time for it.

spacepimp · Aug 25, 2013

MassiveRican said:
This has always been an aesthetically pleasing idea, you already hit all the positive points on why this would be cool, I'll give a bit more perspective on how this could be implemented if the devs feel like tackling it on, and what could be done with SourceFlow to please users with many plugins like myself, or simplify the vision.

For someone like myself and Abz for example that have many plugins (6 pages at 12 plugins each) it can feel like a step backward having to scroll through 72+ covers to find the source you want, so I offer some ideas:

One proposed solution would be to somehow implement a favorites system which would allow to show your most often used plugins, turn favorites off and all the plugins can be seen.

**Drakorex brought up a great point and an awesome comment "Unless the coverflow is a grid". IMHO, I think there is a way to please current Source Menu users with a SourceFlow and not make things more difficult with a favorites plugin system. Make the SourceFlow home screen in smallbox view like Homebrew with a grid view of 8 - 12 plugins per page, not only would it still be 3D but most of the current SM icons could probably be used once tweaked. Now I know Drakorex is very skilled at coverflows and is possible he could make that flow a reality.**

Lastly WiiFlow has always been about options, about molding itself to the needs and styles of many. So why not keep both the Source Menu and SourceFlow, easily turn it on/off with an .ini option or as a config option within WiiFlow itself. This offers another alternative where you can keep a Source Menu with many plugins (more advanced) and a SourceFlow with just a few covers (simplified for kids or favorite plugins in a sense).

You have a huge passion for this spacepimp obviously seen by your never give up attitude, and it shows that you love WiiFlow as much as anyone else.

P.S. To all users let's remeber to donate, not saying this will help chances of making this a reality, but at the very least it shows our willingness to help in contributing to the team, and besides devs can use all the support they can get and it shows we appreciate their time and effort spent on this project when they themselves have little time for it.

+1
I applaud you, sir.

BTW, I just thought up a pithy response to "100% useless, why bother?"
"Well, to answer your question, I think it's worth it because I use Wiiflow for the scenery and the source menu is like a billboard."
I kill me

VashTS · Aug 25, 2013

spacepimp said:
I'm really interested in asking why you think it would not be any better than what we have? Could you expand on that?

its not any better in a sense of what it accomplishes. maybe on the technical side it will be better, but the menu has a sole purpose...pick what plugin you'd like to jump to. regardless if its flow, icons, text it still accomplishes the same goal.

go to source list, choose the plugin, go to that plugin. i don't use it really so maybe that's why i don't think much of it.

again either way, i'll take features! and best wishes for what you are hoping to accomplish!

spacepimp · Aug 25, 2013

Functionally, it will be no better than a text readout of the available sources, that is correct.
I see your point, thanks for responding.
n.b. the sourceflow barrage will end shortly, and indefinitely. Thank you for your patience.

just waiting on fix's reply. night night!

FIX94 · Aug 26, 2013

As you might did notice wiiflow has a TON of issues at the moment most likely because of the new features added, thats why there is no 4.2 still :/
A new feature request yet again is a really hard thing to do... also I do have some kinda bigger real life issues at the moment thats a reason why I cant just keep adding and fixing all day on wiiflow, you know my work is kinda for free, I dont want to change that at all so things might take long. Not sure how long I can keep working on stuff anyways cause the current situation in wiiflow and in real life is quite critical to be honest

MassiveRican · Aug 26, 2013

FIX94 said:
As you might did notice wiiflow has a TON of issues at the moment most likely because of the new features added, thats why there is no 4.2 still :/
A new feature request yet again is a really hard thing to do... also I do have some kinda bigger real life issues at the moment thats a reason why I cant just keep adding and fixing all day on wiiflow, you know my work is kinda for free, I dont want to change that at all so things might take long. Not sure how long I can keep working on stuff anyways cause the current situation in wiiflow and in real life is quite critical to be honest

Funny u mention 4.2 cuz with everything that's been added latetely, WAD Installer, Auto MIOS install, File Explorer, Path Manager, etc, etc.. that we should definitely be at the very least 4.2 if not 4.3 lol.

BTW fix I don't think it matters how long it might take to do a demo, obviously bug fixes come first, with a release of 4.2 if a sourceflow is even considered I think it'll be enough to sate spacepimp's hunger lol.

spacepimp · Aug 26, 2013

Once again, absolutely bang on, I really should start taking notes!

MassiveRican said:
Funny u mention 4.2 cuz with everything that's been added latetely, WAD Installer, Auto MIOS install, File Explorer, Path Manager, etc, etc.. that we should definitely be at the very least 4.2 if not 4.3 lol.

BTW fix I don't think it matters how long it might take to do a demo, obviously bug fixes come first, with a release of 4.2 if a sourceflow is even considered I think it'll be enough to sate spacepimp's hunger lol.

He's right - that would be enough!
It's fair to point out here that the sourceflow has been developed as a concept for over a year.

FIX94
Thanks for the reply, and more importantly, thanks for all the time and effort you spend on WiiFlow. I completely understand your situation, having a life is INFINITELY more important than working on WiiFlow, of course

. I hope you have appreciated my encouragement to take time out and relax in the past.

You encouraged me to start this thread by saying that if I made a post clearly outlining the mechanism for how source flow would work, you would read it, comment on the feasibility of the idea, and consider it for inclusion.
I have written the post, could I have your response?
Thanks

p.s. All the sourceflow 'noise' is about giving wiiflow users the opportunity to show they are interested, and the idea has merit, and that it is not "100% useless", regardless of your perception of me, or the fact that you don't use the sourcemenu.
EDIT: I just want to make it clear that I don't expect you to make a decision on actually coding the demo now, but if you could say whether or not you will consider putting 1 or 2 hours towards this after the next stable version is released, I would appreciate that.
EDIT:Some kind of word would allow the users who want to contribute towards coverflows, categories, covers, themes etc. to start work.
Thanks again

raulpica · Aug 26, 2013

Oh gawd, spacepimp. There's an EDIT BUTTON. And you use THAT to add more stuff to your posts, NOT _quintuple-posting_ straight in a row.

spacepimp · Aug 26, 2013

Straight in a row? Whoops, i thought if the subject was different it was ok to leave things in separate posts, i'm sure I've seen others do it?!!?!?
Sorry

raulpica · Aug 26, 2013

spacepimp said:
Straight in a row? Whoops, i thought if the subject was different it was ok to leave things in separate posts, i'm sure I've seen others do it?!!?!?
Sorry

If you're in the same thread (which is the "subject"), it's all about the same subject

Others might do it when it's useful (like developers needing to bump the thread to highlight a new version of their stuff, translators posting progress) or to require attention (translators needing more betatesters).

The rest of the time, you have to add it via EDIT

spacepimp · Aug 26, 2013

Sorry, I'm kind of a impulsive, strike while the idea is hot -kind of guy. I'll be more careful. thankyou!

Hacking Last Chance for Sourceflow. "100% Useless" - WiiFlow Dev

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