Piracy vs Used Game Stores

Slamicite · Aug 7, 2013

There is a lot of that nonsense of selling a license rather than full product ownership.
In that way, I frankly think both are almost the same thing. That is, accessing information achieved by someone else without some ludicrous license from them.
However, buying used games means that saving something like $3 is enough for you to not support the developers, whereas by downloading the software itself there really is a good chance that the person truly would not, or, more nobly, could not buy the game.

the_randomizer · Aug 7, 2013

Gamestop selling a used game for only 10% less than value of a full price game....seems legit. I'd rather resort to pirating.

Piracy is obtaining an illegal copy, buying a used game doesn't give original developers money. So it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I wish Game Crazy was still around, their used games were actually worth it.

retKHAAAN · Aug 7, 2013

My own personal used game policy:
(keep in mind I rarely buy games anywhere remotely close to release)
- If the difference between a new and a used copy is $5, buy the new copy.
- If there is some additional content that is only available with the new copy and the price difference is negligible or equal to, buy the new copy.
- If the price difference between new and used is 20% or greater, buy the used copy.
- If I have a coupon for $5 off a used game + the general 10% or more difference between used and new + the additional 10% for "power up rewards", buy the used copy.

I also buy most, if not all, DLC for each game I purchase, so, the devs are seeing some revenue there that they wouldn't otherwise be seeing...

My own personal piracy policy:
Don't.

the_randomizer said:
Gamestop selling a used game for only 10% less than value of a full price game....seems legit. I'd rather resort to pirating.

Media does not exactly "depreciate" in value in the same way that a car or lawnmower might...

the_randomizer · Aug 7, 2013

I just saw that what people do in their private lives is their business. Yes, I have pirated before, many of us have. If I'm going to get a used game, I sure as hell won't get one from Gamestop but from Amazon or eBay instead.

Shanester · Aug 7, 2013

For the people arguing "people still wouldn't buy a copy if piracy were gone": I wonder how many pirates bought 3DS games...

calmwaters · Aug 7, 2013

It's not about the money; it's about the games. I'm not paying $40 for a game that's been out for 5 years, which is what Gamestop has been known to do. So, I'll hurt their money grubbing, greedy hands by getting it for less than that. Maybe like 10/15 dollars if I feel generous.

the_randomizer · Aug 7, 2013

calmwaters said:
It's not about the money; it's about the games. I'm not paying $40 for a game that's been out for 5 years, which is what Gamestop has been known to do. So, I'll hurt their money grubbing, greedy hands by getting it for less than that. Maybe like 10/15 dollars if I feel generous.

Screw Gamestop. I'll get used games somewhere else. A used 3DS XL was only $10 cheaper than a new one. That's said. Same with their games, they're typically 10% cheaper than a new copy. No wonder people pirate.

retKHAAAN · Aug 7, 2013

People pirate because the ability to easily do so is there... It's not out of principle, and if you truly believe it is...just know that you're delusional.

Gaming is a hobby, and an expensive one at that. It's designed to be expensive. You're not collecting pogs here, or bird watching. You are paying (or not paying...) for a premium form of interactive entertainment. Whether or not you see actual value in it is on you.

However, justifying piracy by inferring that it's somehow better for the world than purchasing games pre-owned is just silly. You may think that piracy is the lesser of two evils since "the devs" never see any of the money from used game sales, but at least money spent at Gamestop actually has a positive impact on the economy. Neither licensing terms, nor law state that any developer is entitled to see payment from multiple transactions from the same physical item... If that were the case, Toyota is really missing out on sales from used car lots... Fender is really missing out on sales from that used U.S.A. Telecaster I bought from the shop downtown (I wish!)... Do you kick back a few bucks to the dev every time you sell one of your games on ebay/craigslist or to a friend?

Panzer Tacticer · Aug 7, 2013

Every person I have ever known, that is prone to the ole download route, is also an aggressive gamer that aggressively buys both games and hardware.

I know of some people that aggressively buy games but also aggressively sell them back and use the funds to buy new games.

Now piracy 'sounds' bad and used games sales simply sounds legit.

But put yourself in the developers position. Sure you won't like the pirate, as theft is theft, but, who would you hate more, a person that will take all while aggressively buying as well, or the industry built on a premise, that it is ok to sell your product, used, over and over, and not offer you a bloody cent, all because there is no law against it, and not think there is anything wrong with the doing of it.

Piracy is illegal, because people wrote law saying it was. Used games are only legal, because no one has said it wasn't illegal.

Meanwhile, mr developer is likely not happy when a pirate pirates, but, if the pirate is also aggressively buying, well that's life. But I can't see any developers liking knowing their game could have sold a great deal more units, if not for the fact that people sell them used.

And used, what does it get you, a paltry few bucks and the store then sells it like it was almost new.

If I am going to have sympathy for anyone, it's the developers who gave the market the game, not the stores crying they need to rip off developers through used sales just to remain in business.

I buy most of my games as digital downloads. I don't need the used game option. I also don't need game stores. I am happy seeing ALL my money go to the people that made the game. Yes I download, but yes I also spend money on games too. I prefer to download any time the company's practices are shitty (such as obnoxious drm processes as if they can make code a hacker can't hack eh).

retKHAAAN · Aug 7, 2013

Panzer Tacticer said:
Every person I have ever known, that is prone to the ole download route, is also an aggressive gamer that aggressively buys both games and hardware.

I know of some people that aggressively buy games but also aggressively sell them back and use the funds to buy new games.

Now piracy 'sounds' bad and used games sales simply sounds legit.

But put yourself in the developers position. Sure you won't like the pirate, as theft is theft, but, who would you hate more, a person that will take all while aggressively buying as well, or the industry built on a premise, that it is ok to sell your product, used, over and over, and not offer you a bloody cent, all because there is no law against it, and not think there is anything wrong with the doing of it.

Piracy is illegal, because people wrote law saying it was. Used games are only legal, because no one has said it wasn't illegal.

Meanwhile, mr developer is likely not happy when a pirate pirates, but, if the pirate is also aggressively buying, well that's life. But I can't see any developers liking knowing their game could have sold a great deal more units, if not for the fact that people sell them used.

And used, what does it get you, a paltry few bucks and the store then sells it like it was almost new.

If I am going to have sympathy for anyone, it's the developers who gave the market the game, not the stores crying they need to rip off developers through used sales just to remain in business.

I buy most of my games as digital downloads. I don't need the used game option. I also don't need game stores. I am happy seeing ALL my money go to the people that made the game. Yes I download, but yes I also spend money on games too. I prefer to download any time the company's practices are shitty (such as obnoxious drm processes as if they can make code a hacker can't hack eh).

There's a pretty fucking big "what if?" in there...
Like, "What if the majority of pirates bought a lot of games because some people I know do?"
This argument always seems to be back by limited empirical data...

calmwaters · Aug 7, 2013

wrettcaughn said:
People pirate because the ability to easily do so is there... It's not out of principle, and if you truly believe it is...just know that you're delusional.

Gaming is a hobby, and an expensive one at that. It's designed to be expensive. You're not collecting pogs here, or bird watching. You are paying (or not paying...) for a premium form of interactive entertainment. Whether or not you see actual value in it is on you.

However, justifying piracy by inferring that it's somehow better for the world than purchasing games pre-owned is just silly. You may think that piracy is the lesser of two evils since "the devs" never see any of the money from used game sales, but at least money spent at Gamestop actually has a positive impact on the economy. Neither licensing terms, nor law state that any developer is entitled to see payment from multiple transactions from the same physical item... If that were the case, Toyota is really missing out on sales from used car lots... Fender is really missing out on sales from that used U.S.A. Telecaster I bought from the shop downtown (I wish!)... Do you kick back a few bucks to the dev every time you sell one of your games on ebay/craigslist or to a friend?

But why should gaming have to be an expensive hobby? Movie collecting isn't an expensive hobby, but you can spend tons of money on it. It's a bit nicer for those collectors though if the items are cheap, because they can get more movies that way. People are likelier to spend $7.00 than $15 for a used movie. And, the more people spend, the more money is able to be circulated in the market. And don't worry about the game developers: they make maybe 25/30 dollars an hour, which you can totally live off of without breaking a sweat.

PityOnU · Aug 7, 2013

wrettcaughn said:
People pirate because the ability to easily do so is there... It's not out of principle, and if you truly believe it is...just know that you're delusional.

Gaming is a hobby, and an expensive one at that. It's designed to be expensive. You're not collecting pogs here, or bird watching. You are paying (or not paying...) for a premium form of interactive entertainment. Whether or not you see actual value in it is on you.

However, justifying piracy by inferring that it's somehow better for the world than purchasing games pre-owned is just silly. You may think that piracy is the lesser of two evils since "the devs" never see any of the money from used game sales, but at least money spent at Gamestop actually has a positive impact on the economy. Neither licensing terms, nor law state that any developer is entitled to see payment from multiple transactions from the same physical item... If that were the case, Toyota is really missing out on sales from used car lots... Fender is really missing out on sales from that used U.S.A. Telecaster I bought from the shop downtown (I wish!)... Do you kick back a few bucks to the dev every time you sell one of your games on ebay/craigslist or to a friend?

Eh... gaming is actually pretty cheap. I would go as far to say it's an opiate of the masses. I don't think any adult gamer is regularly in a situation where they cannot afford a game.

For the economy, piracy is worse than used games.

For the devs, they are both about equal.

For consumers, I think used games are worse.

And in regards to your used car and guitar metaphor (the same ones that are used literally even damn time this topic comes up), physical goods deteriorate with use, IP does not.

retKHAAAN · Aug 7, 2013

calmwaters said:
But why should gaming have to be an expensive hobby? Movie collecting isn't an expensive hobby, but you can spend tons of money on it. It's a bit nicer for those collectors though if the items are cheap, because they can get more movies that way. People are likelier to spend $7.00 than $15 for a used movie. And, the more people spend, the more money is able to be circulated in the market. And don't worry about the game developers: they make maybe 25/30 dollars an hour, which you can totally live off of without breaking a sweat.

The video market is secondary income for studios. They make movies to sell movie tickets, not necessarily DVDs/Blurays (unless they're straight to video releases...but who pirate's those?). Games have historically been made strictly for the retail market. However, with the movement towards digital, there's the hope that devs will one day be able to do away with publishers all together and sell their own games...

PityOnU said:
And in regards to your used car and guitar metaphor (the same ones that are used literally even damn time this topic comes up), physical goods deteriorate with use, IP does not.

Not sure what point you're trying to make with this...but it's exactly what I stated in an earlier post after someone was crying about Gamestop only charging 10% less for a used game.

retKHAAAN · Aug 7, 2013

sorry...dbl post

Gahars · Aug 7, 2013

calmwaters said:
But why should gaming have to be an expensive hobby? Movie collecting isn't an expensive hobby, but you can spend tons of money on it..

Because video games cost a significant amount of money while being aimed at a much more limited audience.

Anyone can walk into a theater and watch a film, and (region coding notwithstanding) any Blu-Ray/DVD player will play any Blu-Ray or DVD no matter who made the original film. Not only is the market for video games smaller, it's also fragmented along system lines (Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo/Handhelds/iOS/Android/PCs, and PCs are fragmented by system specs/etc.).

To recoup production costs and (hopefully) turn a reasonable profit, the prices for games are going to have to be higher.

(It's also worth noting that, when taking inflation into account, video game prices are the lowest they've ever been and it looks like, for the most part, they're only going to continue to decrease further. Video games are a luxury hobby, sure, but the barrier of entry is improving all the time.)

Slamicite · Aug 7, 2013

wrettcaughn said:
People pirate because the ability to easily do so is there... It's not out of principle, and if you truly believe it is...just know that you're delusional.

Gaming is a hobby, and an expensive one at that. It's designed to be expensive. You're not collecting pogs here, or bird watching. You are paying (or not paying...) for a premium form of interactive entertainment. Whether or not you see actual value in it is on you.

However, justifying piracy by inferring that it's somehow better for the world than purchasing games pre-owned is just silly. You may think that piracy is the lesser of two evils since "the devs" never see any of the money from used game sales, but at least money spent at Gamestop actually has a positive impact on the economy. Neither licensing terms, nor law state that any developer is entitled to see payment from multiple transactions from the same physical item... If that were the case, Toyota is really missing out on sales from used car lots... Fender is really missing out on sales from that used U.S.A. Telecaster I bought from the shop downtown (I wish!)... Do you kick back a few bucks to the dev every time you sell one of your games on ebay/craigslist or to a friend?

This guy is pretty spot-on, however I've bought games even though I should easily pirate them. Why is that? If being able to pirate meant people would not buy games, then games wouldn't sell at all, don't you think?

Yes, it is expensive. So if someone does not have the means to pay for that, I see no harm whatsoever in illegally accessing it.

Nobody is saying that they're good, but that's the kind of thing that happens when the economy is on the mud.
Any spent money has impact on the economy. I'd say the impact caused by videogames to the general economy is marginal. As you stated, they're a hobby. It would mostly just affect Gamestop itself, and I don't think that's too bad.
Indeed, the physical item. The physical item may have a piece of data that can only be legally activated once.
A car is sold considering that it will deteriorate. A game can last fucking forever.

retKHAAAN · Aug 7, 2013

Slamicite said:
This guy is pretty spot-on, however I've bought games even though I should easily pirate them. Why is that? If being able to pirate meant people would not buy games, then games wouldn't sell at all, don't you think?

Yes, it is expensive. So if someone does not have the means to pay for that, I see no harm whatsoever in illegally accessing it.

Nobody is saying that they're good, but that's the kind of thing that happens when the economy is on the mud.
Any spent money has impact on the economy. I'd say the impact caused by videogames to the general economy is marginal. As you stated, they're a hobby. It would mostly just affect Gamestop itself, and I don't think that's too bad.
Indeed, the physical item. The physical item may have a piece of data that can only be legally activated once.
A car is sold considering that it will deteriorate. A game can last fucking forever.

See above "Gaming is a luxury hobby" posts.
Even more of a luxury in certain territories...though people seem to be of the mind that if it's hard to get legimately that somehow justifies stealing it...
Gas is still a hell of a lot more expensive in Brazil than the U.S. Does that mean you're doing gas'n'goes all over town?

Carnivean · Aug 7, 2013

I know people who actively only buy used games, they are obviously doing the same harm as someone who only pirates and gets the same games. But this entire argument is flawed as there's no way to know how many games a pirate buys after pirating or already owns and still pirates (I've pirated plenty of games I've already preordered because of bullshit regional time differences or because it's a collector's edition or something I'd rather not open.) and there's no way to know what percentage of games a used purchaser buys new (and more importantly when they buy them new dictating the profit margins).

FAST6191 · Aug 7, 2013

This again?

Most laws in most places say resale is OK (see stuff like first sale doctrine) and even if we throw the oddity that is licensing into the mix there is still precisely nothing in terms of anybody anywhere making a case in a court as far as games go (to say nothing of various courts giving the go ahead to license resale), consider that other areas of IP and non repairable items see resale all the time and it only gets sillier. To that end second hand games are as much a valid part of the business as any other and the game companies have exactly no grounds upon which to have a bitching session.
I probably used a similar example in the past but blaming used sales for problems is roughly equivalent to blaming the magic games buying fairies for not buying copies of your game. If you can not make enough money with your game and the other ways to make money then you have a bad business model.
It is valid enough I guess (server licenses/software as a service components and such) but I will also not look favourably upon those doing online passes either -- the numbers online matter if various models are to be believed matter and that probably brings people onto piracy.

Other than making numbers online, a buzz or some such then as piracy is not reinforcing the value of games in a hard economical sense where the other is perfectly valid/acceptable facet of law/business then piracy is more damaging by default if nothing else.

Slamicite · Aug 7, 2013

wrettcaughn said:
See above "Gaming is a luxury hobby" posts.
Even more of a luxury in certain territories...though people seem to be of the mind that if it's hard to get legimately that somehow justifies stealing it...
Gas is still a hell of a lot more expensive in Brazil than the U.S. Does that mean you're doing gas'n'goes all over town?

See above "I see no harm in illegally accessing it."
Stealing is when you take my cyberdwarf pillow and I don't have it anymore. That's what happens with gas or a car. If a person could make it magically materialize in front of them, why shouldn't they?
Since there is no physical resource involved in manufacturing an executable file, there is no monetary loss when someone gets it without paying. The only issue is whether the authors would get paid when people can get their stuff for free. And as I've mentioned, if that weren't the case, no games would sell as of now.

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