Mother jailed for tampering with records

kai445 · Mar 7, 2011

Veho said:
I don't get the American school system.

kai445 said:

She payed taxes to one locality, then took advantage of another.Wait, so public schools are funded locally and not on a state (or even federal) level? Yet education "standards" are set and regulated on a federal level?

QUOTE(kai445 @ Mar 7 2011, 09:51 PM) How is it not the case here, stealing is stealing, and we aren't talking pocket change. She effectively stole thousands of dollars...

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Didn't she pay taxes? Did she claim tax exemption on some ground or other? Or are public services really funded locally, down to city block level?

In America, public services are all funded locally. Police departments, fire departments, ambulance services, garbage collection (and recycling), and school systems are all funded locally. Some funding does come from the state (grants, etc.) and the federal government, but the bulk of funding typically comes from the city or town. In some unincorporated places, you have to pay a separate fee to have fire department services (and if you don't pay, they don't put out the fire). Heck, in some places in America, there is no public garbage collection.

So, she did pay taxes, but to one locality. The other locale spends more money on their kids education than the town she lives in. So she wants to reap the benefit of the other community (that has higher taxes and/or spends more) but live where it's cheaper (that has lower taxes and/or spends less on education).

Toma chocolate paga lo que debes.

Thesolcity · Mar 7, 2011

So the majority of this thread in my opinion is this.

>She stole.
She stole what? Taxes? Tax Evasion? She didn't apply for any tax exempt from what I read.

>SHE NO LIVE IN DAT NEIGHBORHOOD SO SHE STEALZ TAXES FROM THE PEOPLEZ IN THAT NAYBORHOOD!!!!11!11
How so? They were taxes that didn't go anywhere except to the schools and "for the students" I don't think her two kids raised any tax and the school got more money by having more kids attend. I'd be more concerned about the $6,000 the school spent on a private detective that came out of taxpayer money.

>SHE LIEZZZ LIAR LIARRRR!!!!!
You're going to tell me you wouldn't lie to get your kids out of a shithole school?

>SHE COULDA MOVED HURRR
In this housing market? Are you out of your damn skull?

>Politicians and corporations steal, so forget about her!
Good point, HOWEVER she was caught, and however BS this is, law doesn't work like that unfortunately, we'll get to the ones who have power eventually.

>VOUCHERS
Possibly the best idea in this whole thread. I also vote for some sane systematic way to get rid of teachers who can't do their job right, there's plenty to shave off. I've seen far too many districts covering for teachers when BS happens and too many teachers are hanging by the very fringe of Tenure because a school/district denies everything.

nando · Mar 7, 2011

the kid's grandfather live in the district, and weather the kid's live with him or not he pays taxes and his grandchildren should be allowed to attend there.

kai445 · Mar 7, 2011

Argentum Vir said:
There is a reason my state is the only debt free entity of the US.

I bet your state takes in more federal funding than it pays, which would account for that. I am going to guess Alaska, or perhaps some other red state?

It can't be Texas, cause their books are royally f'd (they have crushing debt, but refuse to allow for income tax collection. ridiculous).

nebula91 said:

It's not the case because she didn't run into a damn bank and effectively steal tons of money. She found a back door and was caught after opening it while also avoiding payment to the schools (If she even had any payments to make or whatever issue with money you're speaking of).... I just have a problem with you judging someone in that manner. She's even being penalized for it but still this mother trying to do something good for her kids is considered a "scumbag".

They spent $6,000 of their own money to investigate while this wasn't even the first family to be caught in the district but yet they make an example of this woman and her kids and none of the others which just goes to show she was practically unlucky in this entire situation. Sure you can walk up to the School Board and have your voice put out there but in some places I'm more than certain it gets nowhere. Playing things legit all the time is good but at the same time doesn't help your situation at all.

In the article some says "So, would you rather ‘break the law’ and send your child to a better school, or send them to school and not know whether they are going to come home safely or not?" It's all a matter on how you see things.

My only gripe was you specifically calling this one mother that... What she did was wrong and she got in trouble for it.
I'd take it anyone who does something unlawfully is a scumbag, no? I'll assume it's including every pirate of this site also.
QUOTE(Fear Zoa @ Mar 7 2011, 04:04 PM) Never said its was okay....just said I don't see anything wrong with it personally.....I mean if i did Id be a hypocrite....
I'm definitely a bit sympathetic towards the situation though......

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^This.

Try to lighten up, bro.

She's the only one that spit in the face of the district, and fought them by lying every step of the way. You're being willfully ignorant of the fact that she did steal money from the district. Her tuition bill was $20,000 to allow both of her children attend.

In what world is $20,000 chump change? If you robbed a bank, you wouldn't even make it out of there with $20,000 half the time (assuming the vault is locked, and you're stealing all the money in the tellers tills).

You guys are ridiculous.

kai445 · Mar 7, 2011

nando said:
the kid's grandfather live in the district, and weather the kid's live with him or not he pays taxes and his grandchildren should be allowed to attend there.

Fine, and if he had custody of those children (which was something she could have worked out), and they lived with him, there wouldn't be a problem. The fact is, that wasn't the case, she didn't do that, and she repeatedly lied and continued to break the law instead of correcting the situation.

If I live in NY, and decide I want to attend Penn State, and they charge me out of state tuition... if I lie and say I live in PA, and I say "well, my grandparents live in PA", does that make it okay? No! It doesn't! There is not even an argument here!

Veho · Mar 7, 2011

kai445 said:
In America, public services are all funded locally. Police departments, fire departments, ambulance services, garbage collection (and recycling), and school systems are all funded locally.That's retarded.

QUOTEThe other locale spends more money on their kids education than the town she lives in.

For a public school? That's all sorts of retarded.

The mere idea that public schools get different funding depending on the area's average income is absurd. But, apparently, true. It would be funny it if weren't so tragic.

kai445 · Mar 7, 2011

Thesolcity said:
So the majority of this thread in my opinion is this.

>She stole.
She stole what? Taxes? Tax Evasion? She didn't apply for any tax exempt from what I read.
Tax exempt what? She didn't say she was a 503Â, lol. She payed her taxes in one place, and sent her kids to another.

Thesolcity said:

>SHE NO LIVE IN DAT NEIGHBORHOOD SO SHE STEALZ TAXES FROM THE PEOPLEZ IN THAT NAYBORHOOD!!!!11!11
How so? They were taxes that didn't go anywhere except to the schools and "for the students" I don't think her two kids raised any tax and the school got more money by having more kids attend. I'd be more concerned about the $6,000 the school spent on a private detective that came out of taxpayer money.
The school did not get any more money by having her kids attend. She diluted the tax contributions of the parents that did pay to fund the school.

Thesolcity said:

>SHE LIEZZZ LIAR LIARRRR!!!!!
You're going to tell me you wouldn't lie to get your kids out of a shithole school?
By saying I'm an impoverished deployed military recruit? No, I think that falls in the category of being a scumbag. Maybe your standards are lower than mine.

Thesolcity said:

>SHE COULDA MOVED HURRR
In this housing market? Are you out of your damn skull?
Then suck it up. This is America. You work hard and get ahead, you don't lie, cheat, and steal and expect everything to turn out with a fairytale ending.

QUOTE(Thesolcity @ Mar 7 2011, 04:26 PM)

Click to expand...

>Politicians and corporations steal, so forget about her!
Good point, HOWEVER she was caught, and however BS this is, law doesn't work like that unfortunately, we'll get to the ones who have power eventually.

Click to expand...

Off topic and off topic. If we were talking about a tax evading corporation, I think we'd all be on the same side.

QUOTE(Thesolcity @ Mar 7 2011, 04:26 PM)

Click to expand...

>VOUCHERS
Possibly the best idea in this whole thread. I also vote for some sane systematic way to get rid of teachers who can't do their job right, there's plenty to shave off. I've seen far too many districts covering for teachers when BS happens and too many teachers are hanging by the very fringe of Tenure because a school/district denies everything.

If you understand how the voucher system works, you shouldn't have assumed she paid money to the school district she was sending her kids to... only a voucher system would have enabled that. So either you don't get vouchers, or you don't understand the flow of tax money.

Sterling · Mar 7, 2011

@ Kai: Get your facts straight. I edited my post. It isn't the only low debt state.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/44/debt-1...xas_090002.html

MEGAMANTROTSKY · Mar 7, 2011

kai445 said:
nando said:

the kid's grandfather live in the district, and weather the kid's live with him or not he pays taxes and his grandchildren should be allowed to attend there.

Fine, and if he had custody of those children (which was something she could have worked out), and they lived with him, there wouldn't be a problem. The fact is, that wasn't the case, she didn't do that, and she repeatedly lied and continued to break the law instead of correcting the situation.

If I live in NY, and decide I want to attend Penn State, and they charge me out of state tuition... if I lie and say I live in PA, and I say "well, my grandparents live in PA", does that make it okay? No! It doesn't! There is not even an argument here!

We're speaking of middle school, not a state university. Your comparison is, to put it nicely, flawed. Perhaps we should concentrate more on what you illuminated earlier:
QUOTE

Click to expand...

The other locale spends more money on their kids education than the town she lives in. So she wants to reap the benefit of the other community (that has higher taxes and/or spends more) but live where it's cheaper (that has lower taxes and/or spends less on education).

Here, you are acknowledging the potential inequality of the public school system, by pointing out the contradiction between state funds for public schools and local district funding. This crisis is being exacerbated by the capitalist bourgeoisie's assault on public education by either closing them down or transforming them into charters. It's disappointing that we don't know why this woman had turned custody of her children over to her father, but then again, she also shouldn't have to.

Oh, and by the way: The "this is America" line is a stupid and bankrupt line of logic, and the Wall Street bailout proves that cheaters and liars indeed get ahead, even with the help of the US state. Drop the misinformed nationalism on your way out, if you don't mind.

kai445 · Mar 7, 2011

Argentum Vir said:
@ Kai: Get your facts straight. I edited my post. It isn't the only low debt state.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/44/debt-1...xas_090002.html

Get your facts straight.

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=texas...-8&oe=utf-8

Texas has a $27 billion dollar deficit to close. Interesting that Forbes doesn't show that, isn't it?

Nebz · Mar 7, 2011

How am I being ignorant? 48 Students are all let off with being expelled from where ever they're at and then this one family gets caught in a legal situation because they school board or whoever decides to randomly get up off their ass and do something for a change.
They spend $6,000 of their own money investigating and then asked her to pay $30,000 back in tuition once she's officially been caught in the act, she refuses to do so, and then and issue of fraud is brought upon her in court.

It's almost as if you're not reading what I'm saying. I don't have a problem with the outcome. She got in trouble, as she should had. It's just the manner of how all this plays out is kind of bitchy. They're just using her as an example for others but I highly doubt it'll make much of a difference to anybody who is still doing it or will be doing the same later on. Although it's wrong of her to do so I understand what she's doing and I have a bit of sympathy.

... And yet again I state my problem with you is that you call her a "scumbag" for trying to do something good for her kids in the wrong manner. There are MANY families throughout America doing the same thing so I guess they're all scumbags for hurting themselves to help others (their kids). Not everybody gets far by playing it safe and she's an example of this. I see it as Kelley taking the hard road and risked whatever she had to make things better for her children and NOT as OMFG SHE'S STEALING MONEY OH LAWD AMERICA IS TERRIBLE WE NEED TO CHANGE THIS AND NOBODY SHOULD BE ON HER SIDE CUZ IT'S WRONG stuff I keep reading.

Thesolcity · Mar 7, 2011

@kai Didn't really want to quote everything, so I'll put it in numbers.

1)Yes she did, she still payed taxes though, so she wasn't evading taxes.

2) What the? Schools *or some* get funded based on attendance of the students, so yea, more students= more funding.

3)If I had a choice between lying so I don't have to worry about my child's safety, yes, maybe you don't value human life as much as me...

4)Guess what, this is reality. Hard work can and usually does end up still getting you laid off in this economy.

5)That wasn't directed towards you, someone else brought it up. Point is, we can't do anything about the corporations YET.

chartube12 · Mar 7, 2011

Veho said:
kai445 said:

In America, public services are all funded locally. Police departments, fire departments, ambulance services, garbage collection (and recycling), and school systems are all funded locally.That's retarded.

QUOTEThe other locale spends more money on their kids education than the town she lives in.

Click to expand...

For a public school? That's all sorts of retarded.

The mere idea that public schools get different funding depending on the area's average income is absurd. But, apparently, true. It would be funny it if weren't so tragic.

It gets even more retarded. When I was in second grade our school teachers went on a massive strike. The strike lasted 2 and a half months. The school district to this day has the worst teach of our state. Even back than it was really bad. Even so the teachers won the strike and got a massive pay rise. Do you know were the Over Bad Crappy Teachers money comes from? That's right the district's School tax. Pretty much making our towns go to hell. Many nice and friendly people ended up moving away with rich snobby and rude jackasses taking their place. Those who couldn't sale their homes for one reason or another had to buy less food for their families or work second jobs. Notice I said towns. The school district covers 5 or 6 small and medium size towns. I almost forgot: the missed school time all students had to make up during the summer. Leaving hot and grubby kids only have a week vacation between the school years.

kai445 · Mar 7, 2011

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
kai445 said:

nando said:

the kid's grandfather live in the district, and weather the kid's live with him or not he pays taxes and his grandchildren should be allowed to attend there.

Fine, and if he had custody of those children (which was something she could have worked out), and they lived with him, there wouldn't be a problem. The fact is, that wasn't the case, she didn't do that, and she repeatedly lied and continued to break the law instead of correcting the situation.

If I live in NY, and decide I want to attend Penn State, and they charge me out of state tuition... if I lie and say I live in PA, and I say "well, my grandparents live in PA", does that make it okay? No! It doesn't! There is not even an argument here!

We're speaking of middle school, not a state university. Your comparison is, to put it nicely, flawed. Perhaps we should concentrate more on what you illuminated earlier:

QUOTE said:

The other locale spends more money on their kids education than the town she lives in. So she wants to reap the benefit of the other community (that has higher taxes and/or spends more) but live where it's cheaper (that has lower taxes and/or spends less on education).

Click to expand...

Here, you are acknowledging the potential inequality of the public school system, by pointing out the contradiction between state funds for public schools and local district funding. This crisis is being exacerbated by the capitalist bourgeoisie's assault on public education by either closing them down or transforming them into charters. It's disappointing that we don't know why this woman had turned custody of her children over to her father, but then again, she also shouldn't have to.

Click to expand...

Does it matter what level of education? If she wants the benefits of attending a "better" school, you pay for it. Her bill was $20,000 for two children. But she felt that she should have a free ride, and doesn't have to pay for anything. Sounds selfish and ignorant to me.

I agree with you that charter schools are a poor model and only serve to funnel money out of (and kill) our public schools. I also agree that we need to fix our public school system, and that all American children should have access to a world class education.

But regardless, she didn't fight to fix the broken school system. She broke the law, lied about her income, lied about being in the military, and committed fraud to put her kids in a better school.

QUOTE(MEGAMANTROTSKY @ Mar 7 2011, 04:47 PM)

Click to expand...

Oh, and by the way: The "this is America" line is a stupid and bankrupt line of logic, and the Wall Street bailout proves that cheaters and liars indeed get ahead, even with the help of the US state. Drop the misinformed nationalism on your way out, if you don't mind.

Yeah, tell that to Bernie Madoff, Lehman Brothers, and Bear Sterns. You can look them up in Jail, Bankrupt, and Bankrupt.

kai445 · Mar 7, 2011

nebula91 said:
How am I being ignorant? 48 Students are all let off with being expelled from where ever they're at and then this one family gets caught in a legal situation because they school board or whoever decides to randomly get up off their ass and do something for a change.
They spend $6,000 of their own money investigating and then asked her to pay $30,000 back in tuition once she's officially been caught in the act, she refuses to do so, and then and issue of fraud is brought upon her in court.

It's almost as if you're not reading what I'm saying. I don't have a problem with the outcome. She got in trouble, as she should had. It's just the manner of how all this plays out is kind of bitchy. They're just using her as an example for others but I highly doubt it'll make much of a difference to anybody who is still doing it or will be doing the same later on. Although it's wrong of her to do so I understand what she's doing and I have a bit of sympathy.

You aren't understanding the timeline, here's a breakdown:

- She lived in Town A (and pays taxes, tax money which goes to Town A School).
- She sent kids to Town B School (who recieved no money from her, or from Town A School)
- Town B School found out, started sending her bills.
- She sent them a notice that she can't pay because she was poor, provided them false information about her income (including omitting child support she was recieving) to make it look like she was poor to get a subsidized or reduced rate.
- Town B School investigated, found that she was lying, continued to send her bills for tuition.
- She sent them a notice that she was deployed in the military, so she can't respond further.
- Town B School investigated, found that she was lying.
- School took her ass to court.

She was being billed *before* she was brought to court. She was being sent bills. She was being investigated because she lied to them repeatedly.

If she agreed to the expulsion, she wouldn't have gotten in this mess, and could have gone about her life. The fact is that she was expecting something for nothing, rose a big stink about it, and she got smacked for it.

Too bad, so sad, game over.

MEGAMANTROTSKY · Mar 7, 2011

kai445 said:
Does it matter what level of education?

Uh, yes. It certainly does. Decent education, especially in public schools, is becoming increasingly scarce or sold out to privately-run charters. The fact that she pulled this stunt is an expression of desperation of working/ordinary people in opposition to the policies pursued by the state and the bourgeoisie. She acted because the school system refuses to be fixed. It's yet another symptom of the decay of American capitalism.
Oh, and Madoff and Co. are small fry compared to the big hitters. This list might keep you busy for a while as to the grand scale of this corruption: http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list/index

Thesolcity · Mar 7, 2011

So this is either a moral or legal issue.

>Can we sue a mom for wanting to give her children a better education?
No, but she committed fraud, so yes we can.

>Is she to blame for what she did?
Fraud, yes. But about her kids, what she did was....mmm hard to say. She tried to ensure her childrens' safety by moving them out of a shithole school and thus, out of harm. And she had reason to believe harm would come to her kids if they stayed. I know what a shithole school is like and I'd do anything to get out of them, even if it was technically illegal. I don't have a problem with her being sued but it brings up funding issues for schools. Why base it on property tax? That really makes it seem like a purposely made system to keep the poor poor and the rich likewise. And poor schools are forced to chop off programs rich schools have the luxury to keep. For some people its no fault of their own where they're at but pointing blame isn't going to solve this problem. Hmm....what to do.. I'm beginning to understand Kai's point but still, something isn't right.

Nebz · Mar 7, 2011

It seems you aren't understanding that I could give two flying craps about what she was doing wrong.

>Woman does many things wrong to keep her kids in a safer school
That's what I'm reading here and that's what I sympathize. I know what she did and I don't care. In the end she got in trouble for it.
It was wrong blah blah blah she shouldn't have done it blah blah blah I don't care. She screwed up her own life to help her kids and that's all I'm speaking of.

The only conversation between me and you was the "scumbag" part which I don't agree on. Is she a scumbag because she performed unlawful actions? Because you feel the need to label her as something in this entire situation? I would agree on the term if I didn't know that she was doing this all for her kids (as said in all of these articles).

At this point that conversation seemed to have gotten buried within this whole school and money talk the rest of you are having.

MEGAMANTROTSKY · Mar 7, 2011

nebula91 said:
At this point that conversation seemed to have gotten buried within this whole school and money talk the rest of you are having.

I apologize if I contributed to that. I fully defend the mother's actions, albeit conditionally. The true culprit of this debacle is the capitalist bourgeoisie.

@thesolcity: I would argue that it is wholly a political issue, i.e. having everything to do with the state of the American political system.

Nebz · Mar 7, 2011

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
nebula91 said:

At this point that conversation seemed to have gotten buried within this whole school and money talk the rest of you are having.

Click to expand...

I apologize if I contributed to that. I fully defend the mother's actions, albeit conditionally. The true culprit of this debacle is the capitalist bourgeoisie.

It's not a problem. What you guys are speaking of gives me something decent to read about here with your differences and similarities in opinions. I just feel more or less like I'm being attacked for being sympathetic towards the obvious situation when in the beginning of it all I was just asking him how is she a "scumbag" by definition. I'll say it again... The things she done were wrong and she does deserve to be dealt with (IMO) but in the end the lying and "stealing" ...and whatever else was all for the safety of her children. Can you really call someone a scumbag for that?

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