Ground Zero Mosque. Yes or No?

BlueStar · Sep 8, 2010

MadClaw said:
People seem to care more about not offending Muslims than they do the people who's lives were effected by 9/11. What's up with that?

People seem to care more about not offending tea-baggers and soccer mom's who don't even know where the centre's going to be built than they do about the constitution, what's up with that?

It's the mosque protester's side of the argument that's solely based on political correctness and getting all up in arms about 'offence', the people who want to build the mosque have a lot more at stake than just their sensibilities, they're in danger of having an actual right taken away from them.

And I've still not seen any argument against the centre that didn't amount to essentially that - that it shouldn't be built because it wouldn't be politically correct.

Depravo · Sep 8, 2010

MadClaw said:
People seem to care more about not offending Muslims than they do the people who's lives were effected by 9/11. What's up with that?

...which means you're missing the point entirely. It's about the 'protesters' trying to deny US citizens their constitutional rights. This would be a greater blow to the American Way Of Life™ than any number of community centres. The 'offending those affected by 9/11' argument is just a way to gain the support of people who are small-minded, bigoted or just too lazy to think for themselves. The fact that they insist calling it the 'Ground Zero Mosque' when it is in fact neither should be proof of this.

Bri · Sep 8, 2010

RisnDevil said:
There is no need to assume anything about what I am saying, as I have a habit of stating what I feel and not leaving it open to interpretation.

I VERY clearly stated that the mosque SHOULD NOT be built ON GROUND ZERO (I will admit that I was not clear that it only should not be built there, but now I have) NOT because its members/owners/builders were responsible or negligently responsible for 9/11, but because it is disrespectful to build something (anything really) like that that will KNOWINGLY offend or disrespect a VERY LARGE number of people. Look at the poll here and see nearly (not completely, but nearly) half of the people say no.

QUOTE said:

You want to build a mosques "ten millimeters" away from GROUND ZERO; go ahead. Just don't build one on ground zero. Have some respect for your fellow human beings who feel that that is a flagrant display of arrogance and hubris, or just downright rude. "You" didn't do it, I know. I am not saying you CAN'T worship, pray or build where you want: I am "asking" you to think of your fellow man, just like you will be asking people to treat you with common respect and courtesy when people offend or disrespect you (sadly, often times with violence).

It was pointed out in this thread before your post that the proposed community center and mosque won't be ON ground zero -- it will be a full two blocks away.

So you're OK with it then? It's no longer disrespectful?

There's going to be a church rebuilt ON ground zero. How do you feel about that?

QUOTE said:

Also, I very clearly stated that I DID NOT feel that the MEMBERS of the church were negligent, but its STAFF MEMBERS, and there is no one in all of God's green Earth that you will convince me that NOT SO MUCH AS A SINGLE STAFF MEMBER had any kind of inclination or proof of said actions. See my post related to psych and such.

Click to expand...

QUOTE

Click to expand...

Again, I have now said at least three times, that I DO NOT feel that all Muslims are in ANY WAY responsible or negligently responsible for 9/11, so please stop saying that I am implying that.

I didn't imply that you felt that Muslims were responsible. You gave an example that you said was similar to the situation with the mosque in question, and said that you felt it disrespectful that the members of that church rebuild because of the negligence of its staff to prevent the tragedy. So my question is if the people who want to build the mosque are NOT negligent in preventing 9/11, then why in the world would it be disrespectful for them to build a mosque? Do you think this is an unfair question to ask?

-Bri

Bri · Sep 8, 2010

MadClaw said:
People seem to care more about not offending Muslims than they do the people who's lives were effected by 9/11. What's up with that?

What about offending the families of victims of 9/11 who have spoken in FAVOR of the mosque? What about offending Americans who want to make sure that innocent people of ALL faiths aren't discriminated against? Is it OK for the opponents of the mosque to offend them?

It seems to me that in a disagreement where there are two sides, you're going to offend one of them. So why didn't you even consider the other side when you wrote that? Why is better to offend the proponents of the mosque than the opponents of the mosque?

-Bri

BlueStar · Sep 8, 2010

Bri said:
What about offending the families of victims of 9/11 who have spoken in FAVOR of the mosque?

And for that matter, what about the families of the many Muslim victims of the 9/11 attacks? Or are the views of the familes of victims only sacred if they're the right religion, origin and political affiliation?

zeromac · Sep 8, 2010

Why so much Islamaphobia guys? Man society has some wacked up views on how they view each other these days..

RisnDevil · Sep 8, 2010

Bri said:
...Therefore, one can assume that you feel that the Muslims who want to build the community center and mosque are somehow negligent....Unless you feel that all Muslims are somehow responsible or negligent for 9/11, I'm not sure why you feel that it's a sign of "callous disrespect" for a group of them to build a community center two blocks away from ground zero where (as someone pointed out earlier in the thread) there are already plenty of churches and synagogues. In my opinion, the insinuation that all Muslims are somehow responsible for 9/11 or negligent in not having prevented it is the epitome of callous disrespect.

-Bri

So I was wrong when I decried your statement about how I felt? You stated it pretty clearly, several times. My analogy wasn't perfect, I got that. Very, VERY, few analogies ever are. Instead of another analogy, if the tables were completely turned, and a hateful, close-minded, poor excuse of a christian fire-bombed a government structure in, say, Iraq, and then some other guy(s) tried to build a christian worship center there, they would be just as equally wrong.

I AM guilty of one thing: not reading hardly any of the 28 pages of posts before I stated my opinion. You know what though, it wouldn't have changed anything. If it is being built two blocks away, I don't care or need to know what is already there, as it doesn't matter. I would also like to point out, that no one seemed to have noticed where I said that, in the interest of being just and fair, no other religious centers should be on ground zero either....funny.....

Also for emigre, BlueStar, and Depravo: I never said that it is out of respect ONLY for victims/families of the victims. There are a good many people who, for various different reasons, don't mind a mosque being built, just don't want one built on ground zero. And you can tell the difference between the close-minded hate mongers and the others who, like myself, usually don't know that it is being built two blocks away, and are okay with that. Being two blocks away does nothing to change the opinion of whether one should be built at ground zero, nor would/should it. I also never said not to build mosques, and even told heat6jones to all but go f*** himself for his close-minded hate mongering.

BlueStar · Sep 8, 2010

I've brought this up before, but there are many places in the UK which have been the victim of sectarian terrorist bomb attacks from both protestant and catholic terrorists, should there be exclusion zones for religious community centres on those sites as well?

QUOTE said:
don't mind a mosque being built, just don't want one built on ground zero.

No problems then, because there isn't one being built on ground zero. Now if only people would bother themselves to find that out before objecting to it. It's like if people started started saying "I'm really against every church in the USA burning Korans on 9/11 on the orders of the Pope."

Bri · Sep 8, 2010

RisnDevil said:
Bri said:

...Therefore, one can assume that you feel that the Muslims who want to build the community center and mosque are somehow negligent....Unless you feel that all Muslims are somehow responsible or negligent for 9/11, I'm not sure why you feel that it's a sign of "callous disrespect" for a group of them to build a community center two blocks away from ground zero where (as someone pointed out earlier in the thread) there are already plenty of churches and synagogues. In my opinion, the insinuation that all Muslims are somehow responsible for 9/11 or negligent in not having prevented it is the epitome of callous disrespect.

-Bri

Click to expand...

So I was wrong when I decried your statement about how I felt? You stated it pretty clearly, several times.

I was extracting from your analogy (albeit in a sarcastic way) since you said that the reason you felt the church in your analogy was disrespectful is because (some of) those associated with it were negligent. You'll note that in the second sentence I said "unless you feel that all Muslims are somehow responsible or negligent" which I think makes it pretty clear that I didn't make the assumption that you necessarily felt that way.

That said, I understand how you misunderstood and I apologize for putting it like that.

Given that you seem to be OK with the mosque now that you know it's not ON ground zero, I don't think we disagree. Hopefully you can now provide accurate information about the mosque to others who oppose it. I have yet to hear a coherent argument against the mosque in question.

-Bri

Overlord Nadrian · Sep 8, 2010

Ugh... hopefully people will see it this time.

This whole argument is a non-issue, because:
1. It isn't a mosque, though the building will 'contain' a mosque;
2. The building isn't ON Ground Zero, but TWO BLOCKS AWAY;
3. No one should be denied the right to build what they want if they BOUGHT the place;
4. Muslims ? terrorists;
5. Would you want anything in a 1 kilometre radius from Ground Zero to turn into barren wasteland?

Tsk.

YOU BLIND ASSHOLES

Depravo · Sep 8, 2010

Overlord Nadrian said:
Ugh... hopefully people will see it this time.

This whole argument is a non-issue, because:
1. It isn't a mosque, though the building will 'contain' a mosque;
2. The building isn't ON Ground Zero, but TWO BLOCKS AWAY;
3. No one should be denied the right to build what they want if they BOUGHT the place;
4. Would you want anything in a 1 kilometre radius from Ground Zero to turn into barren wasteland?

Tsk.

You forgot to add the part about the words 'Terrorist' and 'Muslim' NOT meaning the same thing. A lot of people don't seem to get that.

Warrior522 · Sep 8, 2010

_Chaz_ said:
Warrior522 said:

Old8oy said:

So let me get this straight....

There's 3 churches, a chapel, and a synagogue all located closer to ground zero than this proposed "mosque" yet there is an issue here somewhere?

Click to expand...

Derp.

The issue is that no church members were responsible for the slaughter of thousands in the 9/11 attacks, so that is a moot point.

Click to expand...

Because the members of a mosque that has yet to be built even 10 years after the disaster were responsible?

How about you think about what you're saying and stop being such a racist fuck?

Excuse me? When the hell did I say that I hated muslims? I merely stated that the location of other religious organizations are irrelevent, as they had no role in the 9/11 incident. I honestly don't give two fucks as to where they put their mosque, and as stated above, any argument against it is flatly irrelevent due to it being TWO FUGGIN' MILES AWAY, as well as 9/11 being 9 YEARS AGO.

Muslims: put up your mosque, and critics? Shut up. That's like saying we can't build any churches near the sites of the crusades, because they had a sub population of fuckups a while back...

...besides, if someone was an extemist terrorist of any religion, I suspect they would want to be as far away as their organization's last known siting as physically possible, so I have good reason that this is not going to be some terrorist training ground, as certain geniuses seem to think...

Wanna know my reasoning for that? How are you gonna train people in the art of fighting inside a mosque IN THE MIDDLE OF NEW YORK CITY?

Popid · Sep 8, 2010

I'm Australian and I would never presume to tell New Yorkers what they should or shouldn't do when it comes to the fallout from such a devastating thing as 9/11, but I did wanna say that I think it's a shame that the people who were affected by 9/11 can't see the idea of a mosque near ground zero as basically the biggest "fuck you" to extremist Islamic morons possible...Building such a thing so near that site to me seems like a great way of affirming the basic principles by which American people are proud to live, namely freedom and equality. To deny such a building seems to some extent like these terrorists have won with their inexcusable terror. I heard on the news tonight about some American pastor who wants to burn a copy of the Koran on the upcoming anniversary of the event, and that kind of knee-jerk hatred - and misunderstanding of who is to blame and what happened - is exactly what people need to strive to pass beyond, despite how hard it is. It might hurt, a lot, and come with all that doubts anyone can imagine, but it's the best way or maybe the only way to stand resolute, impenetrable and uncompromised against those who in their own idealogies and values stand so opposite us

Uncle FEFL · Sep 8, 2010

RisnDevil said:
And Uncle FEFL, I never said that they were not allowed to build there, only that they shouldn't out of respect for their fellow human beings. Yes, they have every right, but not from a "country bumpkin" standpoint the question of if they should IS actually pretty valid.

My post was a "lone wolf," so to speak. I was just stating my opinion backed up by some facts. I wasn't replying to you, but now...

Respect for human beings? Humor me this: why is it that idiots in the Muslim religion destroy the religion itself for everyone else who practice it normally? Yet the same does not happen for Christians, or ANY other religion for that matter?

Read my post again. Clearly it states that opinions hold no jurisdiction in Constitutional law. And they don't. That is a fact. I don't care what any American thinks.

No, it's not valid in the slightest. Al-Waleed bin Talal, the man who owns 7% of Fox News, is building the community center. The report done on it by Fox is contradictory.

Warrior522 · Sep 8, 2010

Popid said:
I'm Australian and I would never presume to tell New Yorkers what they should or shouldn't do when it comes to the fallout from such a devastating thing as 9/11, but I did wanna say that I think it's a shame that the people who were affected by 9/11 can't see the idea of a mosque near ground zero as basically the biggest "fuck you" to extremist Islamic morons possible...Building such a thing so near that site to me seems like a great way of affirming the basic principles by which American people are proud to live, namely freedom and equality. To deny such a building seems to some extent like these terrorists have won with their inexcusable terror. I heard on the news tonight about some American pastor who wants to burn a copy of the Koran on the upcoming anniversary of the event, and that kind of knee-jerk hatred - and misunderstanding of who is to blame and what happened - is exactly what people need to strive to pass beyond, despite how hard it is. It might hurt, a lot, and come with all that doubts anyone can imagine, but it's the best way or maybe the only way to stand resolute, impenetrable and uncompromised against those who in their own idealogies and values stand so opposite us

...my respect for you just skyrocketed. This PERFECTLY SUMMARIZES the logic of what is happening here. The true spirit of America is one of caring; we don't hate Muslims because one subgroup of screwups slaughtered thousands; that would be as insane as saying that we shouldn't let any troops come home to our nations because a few of them did things that have been deemed morally wrong? It's the same thing here: this is the land of the free and the home of the sane; not letting them build the mosque would make us hypocrytes for trying to break our own laws and racist for not acknowledging that THE TERRORISTS WERE A FREESTANDING SUBGROUP.

Muslim =/= Terrorist.

End of.

retKHAAAN · Sep 8, 2010

Popid said:
I'm Australian and I would never presume to tell New Yorkers what they should or shouldn't do when it comes to the fallout from such a devastating thing as 9/11, but I did wanna say that I think it's a shame that the people who were affected by 9/11 can't see the idea of a mosque near ground zero as basically the biggest "fuck you" to extremist Islamic morons possible...Building such a thing so near that site to me seems like a great way of affirming the basic principles by which American people are proud to live, namely freedom and equality. To deny such a building seems to some extent like these terrorists have won with their inexcusable terror. I heard on the news tonight about some American pastor who wants to burn a copy of the Koran on the upcoming anniversary of the event, and that kind of knee-jerk hatred - and misunderstanding of who is to blame and what happened - is exactly what people need to strive to pass beyond, despite how hard it is. It might hurt, a lot, and come with all that doubts anyone can imagine, but it's the best way or maybe the only way to stand resolute, impenetrable and uncompromised against those who in their own idealogies and values stand so opposite us

somebody gets it

Demonbart · Sep 8, 2010

Definitely no.
Ground zero has to be made into a memorial for the people who died on 9/11. Nothing else. And since the twin towers were destroyed by muslim extremist, placind a mosque there would be bad taste.
No offense towards Muslims intended.

EDIT: @ Popid: placing a mosque there will make the extremists thinjk they've won and that the Islam conquered America, and then they'll proceed with the rest of the world.

retKHAAAN · Sep 8, 2010

so now we're back to placing "taste" over the rights and freedoms of American citizens...

edit: lol @ your edit

BlueStar · Sep 8, 2010

Demonbart said:
Definitely no.
Ground zero has to be made into a memorial for the people who died on 9/11. Nothing else. And since the twin towers were destroyed by muslim extremist, placind a mosque there would be bad taste.

You obviously missed the huge font explaination at the top of this page, which has also been repeated about 30 bazillion times in this thread.

It's. Not. Being. Built. On. Ground. Zero.

I guess if people are determined to be wilfully ignorant and make their conclusions without even the briefests of looks at the facts there's not much you can do.

retKHAAAN · Sep 8, 2010

...but Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin said it was being built ON Ground Zero?!?!?! Why would they lie?

Ground Zero Mosque. Yes or No?

Ground Zero Mosque

yes

no

it depends...(see my comment)

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