The British Injustice System

TrolleyDave · Sep 3, 2009

"Two young brothers who tortured a nine-year-old and an 11-year-old boy in a series of brutal assaults have admitted the "horror" attacks. Skip related content

In a crime with chilling echoes of the James Bulger case, the elder victim pleaded to be left to die after his ordeal in Edlington, Doncaster, at the hands of the brothers, who were aged 10 and 11 at the time.

At Sheffield Crown Court, the brothers admitted causing their victims grievous bodily harm with intent.

They denied a more serious charge of attempted murder but the prosecution accepted their pleas and said there will be no trial. The boys will be sentenced at a later date after a series of reports have been prepared.

Few details of the incident were given in court, but previous hearings were told the boys had been hit with sticks and bricks, one had a sink dropped on his head, one had a noose put round his head, the other was burned with a cigarette on his eyelids and ear.

In April, a district judge was told the younger boy had a sharp stick rammed into his arm and cigarettes pushed into the gaping wound. Their tormentors tried to force the boys into performing sex acts on each other. The nine-year-old tried to ram a stick down his own throat after he was told to "go away and kill himself" by one of his tormentors, the hearing was told.

The serious assaults happened after the brothers were led to a "desolate" spot on the edge of the former pit village of Edlington, near Doncaster, South Yorkshire, on April 4.

The brothers were arrested after the nine-year-old boy was found wandering, covered in blood, and the 11-year-old - who is the younger boy's uncle - was then discovered unconscious in a nearby wooded ravine. Both injured boys have since been released from hospital.

As well as the central charges of GBH with intent, each pleaded guilty to robbing one of the boys of a mobile phone and the other of cash. They also admitted two counts of intentionally causing a child to engage in sexual activity.

The brothers were later charged with one count each of attempted grievous bodily harm with intent and making a threat to kill in connection with an attack on another 11-year-old boy in Doncaster on March 28 - a week before the main incident. The brothers denied these charges but each pleaded guilty to an alternative charge of assault occasioning actual bodily harm. This was also accepted by the prosecution."

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090903/tuk-y...ck-6323e80.html

This story was big news a while back. It's reminiscent of the attack on James Bulger many years ago. The resulting charges are disgusting. The charges that were actually laid are nothing compared to the seriousness of the crimes the two kids committed. It shows what a joke our criminal system has become.

Veho · Sep 3, 2009

The sentences will probably be just as ridiculous. A stern look and a good talking to, most likely. That oughta show'em not to do it any more!

TrolleyDave · Sep 3, 2009

That's what I reckon as well Veho mate. And if it's anything like the "punishment" that the kids in the Bulger case had they'll be given new identities and places to live because of fears of repercussion. Hell, I say give em to the parents of the kids they tortured and leave em alone in a nice quiet wooded area with a blowtorch and a metal coathanger!

Danny600kill · Sep 4, 2009

this actually scares me as if this happened to some one you knew or even you then you wud atleast exspect to nver see them agen because there were rotting in a cold steel cell but they will proberly get a suspended sentence then live there lifes like normal an even more scary is they may commit agen and u wudnt now if who they were u cud see them in the street an not notice coz there identitis were never shown

stupid justice sytem they shud be castrated with a blunt rusty razor blade

Hop2089 · Sep 4, 2009

They're most likely juveniles and you know the system for children under 18 is a mess in any country unless you are in super high prosecuting and harsh sentencing country which are few and far between in the industrialized world.

Maktub · Sep 4, 2009

I think you guys (sorry Trolley to say this, but I have many friends working for the Spanish justice system and studying its laws, History and theory and this is the conclusion I've jumped to) are putting too much weight on the justice system. Sure it is as hell important, but it has its limitations. It is its duty to reform people who do bad in society to try and make them good. If that seems by all means impossible, it is their duty to prevent them from harming the "majority" of socially acceptable people.

It is NOT their duty to punish or, by any means, to apply a punishment (taken as a synonymous for scolding) as hard as the crime they comitted. "An eye for an eye..." days are long past.

The justice system fails very often? Sure it does. It is up to us as individuals to depend the least as possible on it. That doesn't put the lack of efficency of the justice system on evidence but the lack of parental supervision/education and, probably, an unhealthy enviroment. DO NOT take me wrong - I'm not one of those "it's not their fault" guys. It IS their fault. They have a will and they were just and plain sadistic. They DO deserve, in my opinion, to be punished. The justice system, however, is "in dubio pro reo" and its laws are often loose so that a judge can interpret them flexibly. If laws were more strict, since they would have to be applied EQUALLY to everyone comitting any crime, they might unnecessarily punish people that, because of their circumstances, had little or no choice (robbery, theft, etc.). In this case, however, I think the laws are either poorly written or poorly applied. Remember laws are a rather poor attempt of humanity to rationalize and equalize morals. It isn't perfect, it is only a human creation and it fails often. All we can do is to do our best as citizens and not become a stupid angry mob. "If it happened to my children..!" is not a valid statement in law. Trolley, I know you're getting into this law stuff soon, so you'll probably be able to get slightly more involved into all this laws fuss, and might be able to change it into what you think is more right.

All I mean is you guys should think of laws as a ridiculous attempt of humanity to be always right (which never works) and since the "in dubio pro reo" principle applies, the way to do it is avoiding punishing too hard rather than avoiding punishing too weakly (an idea that I, personally, agree with).

Veho · Sep 4, 2009

Maktub said:
The justice system, however, is "in dubio pro reo" and its laws are often loose so that a judge can interpret them flexibly. If laws were more strict, since they would have to be applied EQUALLY to everyone comitting any crime, they might unnecessarily punish people that, because of their circumstances, had little or no choice (robbery, theft, etc.).

And that's why laws are flexible, so that sentences can be reduced for those with extenuating circumstances, or increased to the full extent of the law (and then some) for sadistic little assholes like these kids.

engamemart · Sep 4, 2009

hahaha... i think that china has an injustice system too.

MadBob · Sep 4, 2009

QUOTE said:
From BBC Website: The crimes that these brothers committed, the injuries they inflicted, were considered so severe that they were initially charged with attempted murder.

They pleaded not guilty to attempted murder but guilty to a lesser charge, grievous bodily harm.

The court has accepted that lesser charge.

The Crown Prosecution Service and South Yorkshire Police said they believe this is the right decision because of course it stops the victims having to relive the traumatic attack during a trial which would have taken certainly two or three weeks.

The decision was taken in accordance with the families of those victims, who say they are particularly relieved that the boys would not have to relive what had happened to them.

The maximum sentence for grievous bodily harm is the same as the maximum sentence for attempted murder, so the feeling here at the court is very much that the difference in charges really doesn't actually affect the outcome of this.

So the potential sentence is the same and the families of the victims are happy with this as it means they don't have to appear in court, which would be traumatic. nuf said, leave well enough alone.

TrolleyDave · Sep 4, 2009

Maktub said:
I think you guys (sorry Trolley to say this, but I have many friends working for the Spanish justice system and studying its laws, History and theory and this is the conclusion I've jumped to) are putting too much weight on the justice system. Sure it is as hell important, but it has its limitations. It is its duty to reform people who do bad in society to try and make them good. If that seems by all means impossible, it is their duty to prevent them from harming the "majority" of socially acceptable people.

No need to apologise Maktub mate! I kind of agree with what you say, the justice system should look at things on a case by case basis and they should also try to rehabilitate the offender. I also think tho that it should punish people and should be used as a deterrent.

The problem with our justice system is that it's now become so lax that the average person really doesn't care about committing crimes. Is become sort of "trendy" to be a law breaker. I've met people these days who brag about committing crimes that they wouldn't have even considered doing 10 years ago because the punishments and actual jail time were that much harsher.

The justice system has actually become a joke when it comes to how it treats minors. There's cases of kids who have killed adults because they've gone out to stop them vandalising their cars. A family has lost a member, their kids are now growing without their Dad and the courts hand out a couple of years suspended sentence and probation to the kids who committed the murder.

I've had run ins with idiot teenagers myself. Once while walking the seafront in Eastbourne I had a problem with a gang of drunk teens. I was walking along with a date and one of them demanded a fag, being my usual self I told them to fuck off. As we walked off one of them threw a beer can at us. I turned round and charged up to the guy who was obviously in charge of the little gang of chavs and gave him a load of grief. He got all cocky and gave it all the usual "What are you gonna do? You can't touch us" bollocks that 16 and 17 year olds like to give in this country these days so I smacked him.

They didn't know what to do, a few of em scarpered and the kid I chinned started bawling about how it was against the law to hit him and adults weren't supposed to smack kids. Admittedly maybe I shouldn't have slapped him one but I'll guarantee you that kid and his friends think twice about starting on people now.

Kids in this country have become fearless, not because they've become tougher but because they know that nobody will actually do anything. Not the citizen they're giving grief to and not the law. Over here the courts give out ASBOs, which have become like medals to teenagers. The more you've got the more "cool" you are. Kids get up 10 or 15. There's alot of kids who when I was their age wouldn't have been trouble makers because they were worried about being sent to a borstal.

Nowadays it's a stern telling off and an ASBO. If after 3 they were sent to an offenders home and had everything taken away for a while alot of them would definitely think twice. I know it sounds harsh but the best method that could be used to rehabilitate alot of these chav kids would be humiliation.

Instead our system now uses a kind of reward scheme. There's cases where it works, I don't deny that but some of the rewards make it worthwhile for the kid to commit the crime. There's cases where kids have been sent on 2 week safaris to Africa because they're prolific shoplifters, the system thinks that if they had "perks" they might not shoplift. That only encourages them to steal more.

If instead of giving them a holiday the kids had everything taken off them excluding the bare essentials then the kids might think twice about. Like I say, I totally agree with rehabilitation, but somebody has to want to be rehabilitated, they have to want to change. Yes they might be in a situation where they have no choice but to commit those crimes, but if a kids doing it for kicks or to be "cool" or "gangsta" then punish them and punish them so hard that not only will they think twice about it they'll be an example to the people they know about why they shouldn't do it either.

This case is a good example, these kids didn't do it because they had no choice or because it was a survival instinct kicking in. They did it simply for the kick of it. Kids like this can only be rehabilitated through punishment, not through teaching them that it's wrong. If they understood it was wrong they really wouldn't have done it in the first place.

I have to admit tho that the news this morning brought me a little hope in our justice system. Even though the prosecution allowed them to plea down to lesser it won't detract from their sentencing. That's the thing that most annoyed me about this one, it was the fact that the CPS allowed them to plea down to the kind of charges that a football hooligan would have gotten.

MadBob said:

QUOTEFrom BBC Website: The crimes that these brothers committed, the injuries they inflicted, were considered so severe that they were initially charged with attempted murder.

They pleaded not guilty to attempted murder but guilty to a lesser charge, grievous bodily harm.

The court has accepted that lesser charge.

The Crown Prosecution Service and South Yorkshire Police said they believe this is the right decision because of course it stops the victims having to relive the traumatic attack during a trial which would have taken certainly two or three weeks.

The decision was taken in accordance with the families of those victims, who say they are particularly relieved that the boys would not have to relive what had happened to them.

The maximum sentence for grievous bodily harm is the same as the maximum sentence for attempted murder, so the feeling here at the court is very much that the difference in charges really doesn't actually affect the outcome of this.

Click to expand...

So the potential sentence is the same and the families of the victims are happy with this as it means they don't have to appear in court, which would be traumatic. nuf said, leave well enough alone.

I've been trying to post the above reply for the last hour and half but had a constant stream of interruptions. They didn't mention yesterday that the judge would still be sentencing them the same. The way it was put across was that they'd accepted the lower plea and that's what they would be sentenced for. While the maximum sentence for GBH can be as severe as attempted murder it usually carries 3 years tops.

Maktub · Sep 4, 2009

Veho said:
Maktub said:

The justice system, however, is "in dubio pro reo" and its laws are often loose so that a judge can interpret them flexibly. If laws were more strict, since they would have to be applied EQUALLY to everyone comitting any crime, they might unnecessarily punish people that, because of their circumstances, had little or no choice (robbery, theft, etc.).

Click to expand...

And that's why laws are flexible, so that sentences can be reduced for those with extenuating circumstances, or increased to the full extent of the law (and then some) for sadistic little assholes like these kids.

That's probably where flexibility is applied in this case. Kids are still kids, getting one into jail at early age could be worse than doing nothing at all. Jails are not the paradise most people picture in their minds.

There's one other thing, Trolley, that goes with the "in the times of old, things were different" not only in this area but in everything else, too. If that statement were true every time it's said, things would be HELL right now. My view on this is that trends fluctuate from strict to loose every so often. With the appearance of mass media and telecomunications it might be true that it does it faster now (enough for someone to realize that laws are changing at an alarmingly fast pace) but my guess is, as people start realizing (like you), things will go the other way round over time, and then when they're too strict, general opinion will again switch that laws shouldn't be so harsh and the same thing over and over again.

Just my point of view - it's saved me lots of frustration, probably a lot of hair and cancer in stress

Overlord Nadrian · Sep 4, 2009

That's just wrong. No matter if they're kids or not, people who do something like this should either get locked up for life or get the death penalty. I mean, if you'd kill all people who did something like this, the world would be a MUCH better place. You might call me a sadist, but this is what I'd like to see happening in every country. Anyone who does something really wrong, like torturing/killing/mugging/robbing/those kinds of things, should get death penalty. People will be afraid of doing anything like that cause they're scared of getting death penalty too. There might be the odd one here and there, but criminality WILL decrease A LOT if this rule ever comes in the law.

And that's my point of view.

Veho · Sep 4, 2009

QUOTE said:
Jails are not the paradise most people picture in their minds.

That's the general idea.

However, I'm not in favour of a jail sentence in such cases. I'm a great supporter of giving them a good hard smack. A solid thrashing. In public, preferrably.

The problem with corporeal punishment is the belief that it leads to future violence. That is complete bullshit. This is only true if the punishment is disproportionate and arbitrary, when the connection between cause and effect (crime and punishment; feedback) is lost and the lesson is not learned. A well defined, uniform punishment, such as a public flogging, creates a link between the incorrect and socially unacceptable behaviour as cause and pain and humiliation as effect. Something the modern philosophy of treating delinquents completely and utterly fails to do. Unlike getting bitchslapped a few times in front of the peers your retarded behaviour was meant to impress.

And in the long run, a few belts about the behind leave much less emotional scarring than the prolonged psychological torture of a juvenile penitentiary sentence (which, I agree, is likely to have counterproductive effects).

Law · Sep 4, 2009

We just need to clean the gene pool... and the country.

Smuff · Sep 4, 2009

There are too many out-of-control little twats like these 2 in this country.... Parent's/Police/Teachers etc can't do anything to them anymore.

Bring back the old Approve Schools and Borstals - let's show these little fuckers the stick!

Personally I would like to see little arseholes like these 2 shot in the face long before they graduate to this kind of crime. ASBOs ? Waste of fucking time - they're like medals to these fucking grubbit chav wankers. Shoot the bastards.

Rogue Trader · Sep 5, 2009

Sadly kids like these get away with all sorts of crap. The state of the criminal system is deplorable, but they aren't doing a whole lot to fix it. ASBO's just plain don't work- they're 'cool' to the youth.

It'd be great to see the government really crack down on sadistic pricks like those kids, but I can't really see it happening any time soon.

silent sniper · Sep 5, 2009

The bastards should be hung!!!!

...even though it won't happen. fuck you british government.

TrolleyDave · Sep 5, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Maktub @ Sep 4 2009, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2231026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That's probably where flexibility is applied in this case. Kids are still kids, getting one into jail at early age could be worse than doing nothing at all. Jails are not the paradise most people picture in their minds.

There's one other thing, Trolley, that goes with the "in the times of old, things were different" not only in this area but in everything else, too. If that statement were true every time it's said, things would be HELL right now. My view on this is that trends fluctuate from strict to loose every so often. With the appearance of mass media and telecomunications it might be true that it does it faster now (enough for someone to realize that laws are changing at an alarmingly fast pace) but my guess is, as people start realizing (like you), things will go the other way round over time, and then when they're too strict, general opinion will again switch that laws shouldn't be so harsh and the same thing over and over again.

Just my point of view - it's saved me lots of frustration, probably a lot of hair and cancer in stress <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /></div>

I see where you're coming from with the times of old statement. In this country tho jails have really changed. About half the people I know have spent a bit of time in jail over the years and they say it has really changed. They've gone from being a place where the average bloke really wouldn't want to go, to being a place where it's just somewhere you get banged up for a while. Don't get me wrong, it's still no picnic in the park but it's no longer the place it used to be.

My views on jail time are probably a bit harsh, but the way I look at it is it's a place where you should lose all the things you were entitled to for actually being a productive citizen. I believe in educational/work programs for prisoners, they should still be allowed contact with family and what not. They shouldn't be entitled to stuff like radios, tellies and the kind of perks you get on the outside. I know it sounds terrible but my belief is that if you don't behave like a human, you should lose some of those human rights. Again, it's a case by case basis, but take a pedo or a rapist for example. They've shown that they don't have any sympathy for anyone elses rights as a human, so why shouldn't they be shown the exact same kind of respect? Feed them yes, clothe them yes, educate them yes, but entertain them? Give them the same kind of rights that their victims have? I disagree totally with that treatment.

I know what you mean about punishments swinging from too harsh to too lenient tho. It's always been a problem and it really would be hard to find a balance, but that's mostly because of the differing opinions on how many rights a prisoner should be afforded. There are those that will always be overly compassionate because it's in their nature and there are those who because they've been victims of crime will always be overly harsh.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Overlord Nadrian @ Sep 4 2009, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2231076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That's just wrong. No matter if they're kids or not, people who do something like this should either get locked up for life or get the death penalty. I mean, if you'd kill all people who did something like this, the world would be a MUCH better place. You might call me a sadist, but this is what I'd like to see happening in every country. Anyone who does something really wrong, like torturing/killing/mugging/robbing/those kinds of things, should get death penalty. People will be afraid of doing anything like that cause they're scared of getting death penalty too. There might be the odd one here and there, but criminality WILL decrease A LOT if this rule ever comes in the law.

And that's my point of view.</div>

I'm not so sure about the death penalty, although the only statistics I really have to go on are the American ones. In the States that have the death penalty they still have pretty much the same serious crimes and serious crime rate that the non death penalty states have. I know that Thailand has the death penalty for drug smugglers but is still one of the worlds leading suppliers in opiate based drugs like heroin.

Harsh punishments have 2 different effects, they stop the average bloke from committing crimes but they also create a smarter and meaner criminal. I do agree with locking sadistic criminals up for life tho. Killing them is no real punishment as they don't really suffer any. It's over for them. Locking them up for life with no benefits is a punishment tho.

Singapore has some pretty harsh punishments for some pretty trivial things, but alot of the punishments are monetary based from what I understand. Maybe some of our users from Singapore can let us know how effective it is?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Veho @ Sep 4 2009, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2231084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Jails are not the paradise most people picture in their minds.</div>

That's the general idea.

However, I'm not in favour of a jail sentence in such cases. I'm a great supporter of giving them a good hard smack. A solid thrashing. In public, preferrably.

The problem with corporeal punishment is the belief that it leads to future violence. That is complete bullshit. This is only true if the punishment is disproportionate and arbitrary, when the connection between cause and effect (crime and punishment; feedback) is lost and the lesson is not learned. A well defined, uniform punishment, such as a public flogging, creates a link between the incorrect and socially unacceptable behaviour as cause and pain and humiliation as effect. Something the modern philosophy of treating delinquents completely and utterly fails to do. Unlike getting bitchslapped a few times in front of the peers your retarded behaviour was meant to impress.

And in the long run, a few belts about the behind leave much less emotional scarring than the prolonged psychological torture of a juvenile penitentiary sentence (which, I agree, is likely to have counterproductive effects).
</div>

I totally agree with you on this one Veho. Humiliation in front of the people they were originally trying to impress is the perfect punishment for most young troublemakers. If a kid who robbed an old woman was forced to wear a t-shirt that said "I'm a prick who likes to pick on old ladies, shun me" that would have a far greater effect then locking them up. Locking them up still gives them the opportunity to big up how "gangsta" they are if you know what I mean. Take away the stigma of how cool crime is and most kids won't want anything to do with it. There'll always be kids who commit crime of course because it's the way they're wired or because they have to because their parents are selfish and don't feed/clothe them like they should. But like was said earlier, they could be looked at on a case by case basis.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmuffTheMagicDragon @ Sep 4 2009, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2231215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>There are too many out-of-control little twats like these 2 in this country.... Parent's/Police/Teachers etc can't do anything to them anymore.

Bring back the old Approve Schools and Borstals - let's show these little fuckers the stick!

Personally I would like to see little arseholes like these 2 shot in the face long before they graduate to this kind of crime. ASBOs ? Waste of fucking time - they're like medals to these fucking grubbit chav wankers. Shoot the bastards.</div>

That's exactly the problem with ASBOs, they're looked on as "cool" or "gangsta". Scrap them and look at another way of punishing. I know this might sound really stupid but they should be paraded on telly and humiliated. As much of a prick as Jeremy Kyle is he would be perfect for the job. Stick them on the BBC and have Kyle rip them to bits, make them feel like such a loser that they'll be too ashamed to show their faces around their friends.

<hr><b><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Posts merged</span></b>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rogue Trader @ Sep 5 2009, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2231284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Sadly kids like these get away with all sorts of crap. The state of the criminal system is deplorable, but they aren't doing a whole lot to fix it. ASBO's just plain don't work- they're 'cool' to the youth.

It'd be great to see the government really crack down on sadistic pricks like those kids, but I can't really see it happening any time soon.</div>

No I can't see it happening any time soon either, which is an incredible shame as it really needs to be nipped in the bud now. It's getting to be a worse and worse problem. The problem we've got at the moment is we've got alot of people who are overly compassionate and believe that criminals should be afforded the same rights inside of jail as they are out. For me the whole point of jail is to teach people that if you don't allow other people the right to a reasonable existence then you lose all the perks of society. I don't know if I've explained that well, but hopefully you'll understand what I mean.

What we really need to do here is change the way the word "gangsta" is looked at. Kids acting "gangsta" has become cool, we need to turn it back around where if you act "gangsta" then you're a prick and not a hero.

-------

Sorry if any of this sounds a bit confused but I've got a banging headache and can't really put my thoughts together properly but I wanted to answer as well. Hopefully everybody understands what I'm trying to say!

Domination · Sep 5, 2009

TrolleyDave said:
Singapore has some pretty harsh punishments for some pretty trivial things, but alot of the punishments are monetary based from what I understand. Maybe some of our users from Singapore can let us know how effective it is?

We fine for, eating/drinking on the train, littering(which can also result in community service), skating at the train station, smoking at non-smoking zones and on the train, bringing durians onto the train. Etc... probably still have more but I don't remember. Lately we have staff going around the train and the stations to inspect ppl too, and it seems a lot of people were fined. And most of them start from 500SGD..,. eating on the train is 500...

Fining is probably quite effective, since the train stations are really clean.

Though we have harsh punishments too. I'm sure some people know we give out death penalty unlike some other countries, and not just for some seriosu crimes. Kidnapping, drug smuggling and murder are one of them that can get the person a death sentence and a chance to stand on the gallow. Yes we hang, we don't use posion or wtf.

TrolleyDave · Sep 5, 2009

Domination said:
TrolleyDave said:

Singapore has some pretty harsh punishments for some pretty trivial things, but alot of the punishments are monetary based from what I understand. Maybe some of our users from Singapore can let us know how effective it is?

Click to expand...

We fine for, eating/drinking on the train, littering(which can also result in community service), skating at the train station, smoking at non-smoking zones and on the train, bringing durians onto the train. Etc... probably still have more but I don't remember. Lately we have staff going around the train and the stations to inspect ppl too, and it seems a lot of people were fined. And most of them start from 500SGD..,. eating on the train is 500...

Fining is probably quite effective, since the train stations are really clean.

Though we have harsh punishments too. I'm sure some people know we give out death penalty unlike some other countries, and not just for some seriosu crimes. Kidnapping, drug smuggling and murder are one of them that can get the person a death sentence and a chance to stand on the gallow. Yes we hang, we don't use posion or wtf.

Do you think it works tho? Like do you feel safe wandering the streets on your own? Is the crime rate there lower than it is in say the UK?

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