Quoted for truth.8BitWalugi said:
Pokemon is one of the only decent games left that are being made for Nintendo systems. There are 1000s of DS games, but less than 100 are worth even downloading.
Pokemon is one of the only decent games left that are being made for Nintendo systems. There are 1000s of DS games, but less than 100 are worth even downloading.
Typical screwy logic. Final Fantasy, Mario, and Zelda have ALL gone through drastic change since their original games. Pokemon has not. No one in this thread has said pokemon is a bad series. It's just an extremely lazy series with no effort put into it. And it suffers from the typical deceptive repackaging that has been in effect since the original. Repackage the game 3 times with almost no changes and expect people to buy it 3 times. Then remake it and repackage it 2-3 times for people to buy AGAIN.8BitWalugi said:
The Pokemon games are all really good games. But they suffer from lack of effort or improvement, as well as deceptive marketing tactics.
Zelda was orginally 2D, now it's 3D. Pokemon was originally 2D, now on the consoles it's 3D. What other extreme events has the Zelda series gone through except item/story/surroundings?granville said:
Zelda has changed dramatically in core gameplay as it became 3D. I wasn't referring to the console Pokemon games, just the main series on handheld. When Zelda became 3D, the core combat was completely altered. You could lock onto enemies, make combos, and have epic fights with enemies.
When they made Pokemon in "pseudo 3D" on DS, they changed nothing in the core gameplay. It's not even full 3D, and the sprite work isn't any better than it was on GBA (IE- not even much better than GBC)
Almost every Zelda game feels unique and completely different. The steps up are quite an accomplishment in fact-
Zelda 1 ---- Zelda 2
Zelda 2 ---- LTTP
Links Awakening felt like a cross Between Zelda 1 and 3, first Gameboy Zelda
LTTP ---- OOT
Majora's Mask was very like OOT in gameplay, but it had a very different feel to the progression
Oracle of Ages/Seasons felt similar to each other and LA, but had new ways to alter the world
OOT/MM ---- Wind Waker
(fit Minish Cap in here as being like the GB Zeldas but have yet a new unique world altering mechanic)
Zelda Phantom Hourglass was really NOTHING like any other Zelda thanks to new controls
Twilight Princess I hear is like OOT. Not played it.
Spirit Tracks should be like PH
Zelda Wii---???
So some are drastically different, some are derivitive of others while still being different, and some are VERY similar to each other. Depends. But Pokemon is consistently almost the same with each generation.
Ironically, many of the handheld Zeldas on GB/GBC/GBA which were so similar to each other were developed by Capcom. Capcom, the company who makes the Megaman games, notorious for having minor changes between releases.
When they made Pokemon in "pseudo 3D" on DS, they changed nothing in the core gameplay. It's not even full 3D, and the sprite work isn't any better than it was on GBA (IE- not even much better than GBC)
Almost every Zelda game feels unique and completely different. The steps up are quite an accomplishment in fact-
Zelda 1 ---- Zelda 2
Zelda 2 ---- LTTP
Links Awakening felt like a cross Between Zelda 1 and 3, first Gameboy Zelda
LTTP ---- OOT
Majora's Mask was very like OOT in gameplay, but it had a very different feel to the progression
Oracle of Ages/Seasons felt similar to each other and LA, but had new ways to alter the world
OOT/MM ---- Wind Waker
(fit Minish Cap in here as being like the GB Zeldas but have yet a new unique world altering mechanic)
Zelda Phantom Hourglass was really NOTHING like any other Zelda thanks to new controls
Twilight Princess I hear is like OOT. Not played it.
Spirit Tracks should be like PH
Zelda Wii---???
So some are drastically different, some are derivitive of others while still being different, and some are VERY similar to each other. Depends. But Pokemon is consistently almost the same with each generation.
Ironically, many of the handheld Zeldas on GB/GBC/GBA which were so similar to each other were developed by Capcom. Capcom, the company who makes the Megaman games, notorious for having minor changes between releases.
People are confusing shovelware with games being similar to past entries in the series.
Shovelware is cheaply made games being developed with the minium effort, resources and time.
Shovelware is cheaply made games being developed with the minium effort, resources and time.
Well I don't consider Pokemon games shovelware, and I do like them a lot, but they do have an extremely cheap development made with minimal effort or time. It's just one of those series' that fits into the same definition as shovelware but is actually fun. So I'd add something else to that definition-
"Shovelware is cheaply made games being developed with the minium effort, resources and time and sucks."
Pokemon lacks the suckage line.
"Shovelware is cheaply made games being developed with the minium effort, resources and time and sucks."
Pokemon lacks the suckage line.
"im such a big mario 2d fan but NSMB is soo easy that it makes me sooo mad!like what the eff is with the boss where you just run to the edge and then click a button and then bowser falls"
Hmm....
(best I could find on short notice)
Pokemon
Additions- sure
Refinements- perhaps
Improvements- not so much
Also "more pokemon", speaking as presently incredibly bored rom hacker with something that I could pass off as ARM assembly skills, a bookmark of http://www.pipian.com/ierukana/hacking/ds_evos.html , someone who just searched for and found this: http://www.videogamey.com/p/pokemon-secret...conventions-of/ , mastery of the "change photo to 16 colours, posterize and shrink to sprite sizes" function in an image editor and a random number generator/database filler I am fairly sure I could make a pokemon game with 65536 pokemon or more if I decide to turn my procedural generation ideas to evil(er) purposes. I take tribute in form of mega sour sweets (and dental work offers for the months following the binge).
Back on topic and only to derail it again I am also ignoring shovelware in favour of "had potential but failed miserably" option everyone else seems to be having a great time with.
Puzzle quest- fantasy puzzle game with new and interesting mechanics with the potential for deep play while at the same time being fairly familiar (the puzzle game trifecta), some nice (if somewhat generic) fantasy artwork and story and good sound but it was all fundamentally broken by the fact the same puzzles were used- puzzle players will notice that sort of thing especially when there are only a few puzzles in rotation. Now do not get me wrong I played it for hours and indeed it is still loitering around but that was not good.
If I had to pick true shovelware/cash in and I only leave elf bowling alone as before it was on the DS it provided some fun in high school in the pre flash games era (suffice it to say I saw the rise of stickdeath) and trying to get it to run ultimately provided me with skills that will lead to my life of crime and hopefully one or two cheesy scenes. I choose practically anything made by disney or that they were ultimately responsible for- back when they made now legendary games like Aladdin and Jungle Book (repeat high school story but for my 5-7 year old self instead, those that do not know them find a megadrive emulator before replying) to name but two of many and indeed at points on the GBA looked like they might have found it again (to the point where many would sooner play the GBA release of a game when both a GBA and DS version appeared) but no it has gone seemingly to never return. Cartoon network/similar are runners up here but they did not have as far to fall*.
*Dexter's lab chess on the GBA was awesome (probably the best chess game on the system and if it had touchscreen it would be on the DS too) but not enough to peg them higher the disney of old.
Hmm....
(best I could find on short notice)
Pokemon
Additions- sure
Refinements- perhaps
Improvements- not so much
Also "more pokemon", speaking as presently incredibly bored rom hacker with something that I could pass off as ARM assembly skills, a bookmark of http://www.pipian.com/ierukana/hacking/ds_evos.html , someone who just searched for and found this: http://www.videogamey.com/p/pokemon-secret...conventions-of/ , mastery of the "change photo to 16 colours, posterize and shrink to sprite sizes" function in an image editor and a random number generator/database filler I am fairly sure I could make a pokemon game with 65536 pokemon or more if I decide to turn my procedural generation ideas to evil(er) purposes. I take tribute in form of mega sour sweets (and dental work offers for the months following the binge).
Back on topic and only to derail it again I am also ignoring shovelware in favour of "had potential but failed miserably" option everyone else seems to be having a great time with.
Puzzle quest- fantasy puzzle game with new and interesting mechanics with the potential for deep play while at the same time being fairly familiar (the puzzle game trifecta), some nice (if somewhat generic) fantasy artwork and story and good sound but it was all fundamentally broken by the fact the same puzzles were used- puzzle players will notice that sort of thing especially when there are only a few puzzles in rotation. Now do not get me wrong I played it for hours and indeed it is still loitering around but that was not good.
If I had to pick true shovelware/cash in and I only leave elf bowling alone as before it was on the DS it provided some fun in high school in the pre flash games era (suffice it to say I saw the rise of stickdeath) and trying to get it to run ultimately provided me with skills that will lead to my life of crime and hopefully one or two cheesy scenes. I choose practically anything made by disney or that they were ultimately responsible for- back when they made now legendary games like Aladdin and Jungle Book (repeat high school story but for my 5-7 year old self instead, those that do not know them find a megadrive emulator before replying) to name but two of many and indeed at points on the GBA looked like they might have found it again (to the point where many would sooner play the GBA release of a game when both a GBA and DS version appeared) but no it has gone seemingly to never return. Cartoon network/similar are runners up here but they did not have as far to fall*.
*Dexter's lab chess on the GBA was awesome (probably the best chess game on the system and if it had touchscreen it would be on the DS too) but not enough to peg them higher the disney of old.
granville said:
With this logic I would have to say the Harvest Moon and Rune Factory series. I adore them both, but with this logic it's exactly the same. Nothing really changes at all. Monster Hunter could be considered shovelware as well because you are basically doing the same things over and over in every game. With the logic you have provided, all games that have more than one game are shovelware, Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, all World War II games, Halo, Resident Evil, everything. Everything that isn't the first game in the series can now be considered shovelware with this logic.
NSMB was ok. It wasn't shovelware, as it had clearly been worked on and well planned. Saying that, it was far too easy and also too short (although the length would have been ok had there been even the slightest challenge).
As to Pokemon, i've never thought of it as shovelware, but thinking about it, it does tick all the boxes- it's just the same stuff repackaged every time- how many times will we have to pick one of three pokemon, fight a childhood rival who will then proceed to show up at intervals with slightly improved pokemon, deliver some sort of package/message, fight 8 gym leaders, fight in a ghost based area, defeat a criminal organisation by winning three or four battles against the leaders, catch three 'lesser' legendary pokemon and a 'big' one, fight the elite four, and then someone else (possibly a childhood rival), find all the HMs, travel through a mountain, complete some sort of task to find a gym leader...... the list goes on.
Don't get me wrong, I love pokemon games, in small doses now and again, but there has not been a single real change since red/blue (which were original and best). The 'updates' that have happened are little things, and mostly superficial. They have done anything major to improve or revolutionalise the core game mechanics. Plus they use the same basic plot every time.
However even though it's shovelware, it's playable, and enjoyable, if a little tedious at times. The worst shovelware-I generally avoid- which is unfortunately 80%-90% of the DS' library, and as I avoid it, I cannot say which is worst.
As to Pokemon, i've never thought of it as shovelware, but thinking about it, it does tick all the boxes- it's just the same stuff repackaged every time- how many times will we have to pick one of three pokemon, fight a childhood rival who will then proceed to show up at intervals with slightly improved pokemon, deliver some sort of package/message, fight 8 gym leaders, fight in a ghost based area, defeat a criminal organisation by winning three or four battles against the leaders, catch three 'lesser' legendary pokemon and a 'big' one, fight the elite four, and then someone else (possibly a childhood rival), find all the HMs, travel through a mountain, complete some sort of task to find a gym leader...... the list goes on.
Don't get me wrong, I love pokemon games, in small doses now and again, but there has not been a single real change since red/blue (which were original and best). The 'updates' that have happened are little things, and mostly superficial. They have done anything major to improve or revolutionalise the core game mechanics. Plus they use the same basic plot every time.
However even though it's shovelware, it's playable, and enjoyable, if a little tedious at times. The worst shovelware-I generally avoid- which is unfortunately 80%-90% of the DS' library, and as I avoid it, I cannot say which is worst.
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sooo many shovelware.
lets list em which i think they are
Desktop Tower Defense
(Port, Add Drawing Grid. Done)
Imagine Series
(*Yawn*)
Harvest Moon ?
(Simple, New Characters, New Story, New Items, Done)
Pokemon
(To Much of the Same Effort)
all i know
lets list em which i think they are
Desktop Tower Defense
(Port, Add Drawing Grid. Done)
Imagine Series
(*Yawn*)
Harvest Moon ?
(Simple, New Characters, New Story, New Items, Done)
Pokemon
(To Much of the Same Effort)
all i know
I'm kinda new to the pokemon scene, the DS was my first portable system so Pearl was my first full pokemon experience... they didn't change much, sure, but I really don't think they rushed any production and the gameplay does feel polished. The WiFi alone adds a whole new level to the Pokemon experience, which I think a lot of you are forgetting. And they didn't rush that feature either, it's very fleshed out.
Hm, worst shovelware... to be honest, I've never really played a game that I would consider shovelware.
Elf bowling does seem to fit the bill.
Hm, worst shovelware... to be honest, I've never really played a game that I would consider shovelware.
Elf bowling does seem to fit the bill.
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granville said:
Hang on... your saying Pokemon doesn't compare to Zelda BECAUSE IT ISN'T IN FULL 3D?!?!?
... Why do games need to be in full 3D to be different? What's wrong with just really good 2D? Also, Pokemon is Nintendo's 2nd largest franchise (1st being Mario).
Lol, way to twist my words around! I simply said Pokemon can't compare to Zelda, evolutionarily speaking. As in, almost every Zelda game has undergone drastic changes from game to game, as opposed to Pokemon. 3D is just a small part of this. I'm talking about the combat, puzzles, level design, bosses, and just core gameplay.
In its current state, Pokemon probably wouldn't benefit from being in full 3D gameplay-wise. This is assuming they didn't change the gameplay any. Zelda was completely redesigned when they made it in 3D. Literally every aspect of the game was completely overhauled and changed to benefit from the new technology. No longer could you just swipe your sword at enemies and hold still to raise your defenses. Combat had an entirely new system. It felt much more like real sword combat would in real life than ever before. I trust I don't need to get into the dungeon design.
There's nothing wrong with 2D. Did I say that? No. So be quiet and stop twisting my words. Link to the Past is actually my favorite Zelda, so your logic is moot. I simply said that the series has experienced an almost constant flow of evolution and change that the Pokemon series has not.
The Pokemon games are NOT shovelware due to the simple fact that they are extremely fun to play. As in GOOD games. But they are cheaply made and have little effort put into each new generation or game. The DS games could very well have been made on the original Gameboy and no one would think anything about any downgrades besides graphics and sound.
In its current state, Pokemon probably wouldn't benefit from being in full 3D gameplay-wise. This is assuming they didn't change the gameplay any. Zelda was completely redesigned when they made it in 3D. Literally every aspect of the game was completely overhauled and changed to benefit from the new technology. No longer could you just swipe your sword at enemies and hold still to raise your defenses. Combat had an entirely new system. It felt much more like real sword combat would in real life than ever before. I trust I don't need to get into the dungeon design.
There's nothing wrong with 2D. Did I say that? No. So be quiet and stop twisting my words. Link to the Past is actually my favorite Zelda, so your logic is moot. I simply said that the series has experienced an almost constant flow of evolution and change that the Pokemon series has not.
The Pokemon games are NOT shovelware due to the simple fact that they are extremely fun to play. As in GOOD games. But they are cheaply made and have little effort put into each new generation or game. The DS games could very well have been made on the original Gameboy and no one would think anything about any downgrades besides graphics and sound.
granville said:
Regarding the bold text;
Really? Most Zelda games are more of the same. Dungeon, item, item-relevant puzzles and bossfight, Dungeon etc.
Not to rag on 'em. I loved both Link to the Past and Wind Waker something fierce, but Zelda is a pretty predictable series.
Not that that's bad, but Majora's Mask was the most innovative one I can remember.
Regarding the underlined text;
My god, I would be prepared to murder a certain quantity of people in return for a port of Pokemon Platinum on the Gameboy Color.
Well let me explain. The Zelda titles have predictable stories and repetitive natures of their quests, but what I meant was the core gameplay. IE- HOW you play the game has changed. Like going from LTTP to OOT, the games shared some similar styles, but they completely overhauled the core mechanics.
The stories ARE predictable though, as are the level progressions. And some of the games have identical gameplay as well, as I cited the Gameboy/GBC trio as having such a similar system. But again, Capcom made those. Fitting eh?
The stories ARE predictable though, as are the level progressions. And some of the games have identical gameplay as well, as I cited the Gameboy/GBC trio as having such a similar system. But again, Capcom made those. Fitting eh?
If I ignore all Imagine games, I've got to go with Rayman Raving Rabbids TV Party. A "Party" board game where the board is just a square, taking away any strategy and fun that could be had. That and the minigames aren't worth it since they have zero design effort put into them.
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Njrg said:Rune Factory, Tetris, Pokemon, N+, Mario party, super Mario Advance, and sports games are DEFINATELY my cup of tea, and most of them have good ratings and sell well, but they're still shovelware
How do you say that? Some of them are some of my faves too. So how do you say that? It's not shovelware since even if they made it to get a profit, if it lives up to the name. Well, maybe except the HM games. I myself was disappointed by IoH. And the puzzle games. But the GBA ones and the N64 ones were the best. Even though I was disappointed with the DS versions. I still went on until 6 year for each. There are some characters which I like too much. Namely, Lumina in DS, Skye in DS Cute, Lanna in my guy save file for IoH, and Vaughn for my other save file.
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