Hacking Channels vs ELFs

Joey90 · Jun 3, 2008

teq said:
Granted, by the time your Wii's NAND starts to fail at retaining your data, it'll be as old as the NES is now... but for a lot of you, it'll be the only access you have to NES games.

I think this is the key part here... and even that is probably a gross underestimate as to how long the NAND will last...

You are probably a lot more likely to cause problems by making your drive read burned discs than by using the wii NAND (though both are pretty irrelevant)

Covarr · Jun 4, 2008

SkH said:
The standard now in SDs are nearly 4 GB, what the hell are doing here that 512 MB?!!
No. SD only goes up to 2GB. SDHC starts at 4GB, but hasn't caught on enough yet to be considered "the standard".

Also, it should be pointed out that you're comparing the flash memory of a product released in 2006 to what your expectations for 2008 are. When the system was released, 512MB was a lot more expensive than it is now. Personally, I think it's time for an increase in storage or a price drop, but your comparison is stupid nonetheless.

SkH said:

The Nunchuk. What a ... um, what the HELL is that wire doing there?! If the Wiimote is wireless, then why not the Nunchuk too?! Aaaww!!

Classic Controller. Same. WTH wire?!!
First of all, this makes the classic controller and nunchuk less expensive to the customer; it's not just saving Nintendo money, it's cheaper for US THE CONSUMERS too. It makes associating a specific remote with a specific nunchuk much simpler. On top of all that, this wire is only going to a remote that you're already holding; the biggest reason for wireless controllers is to prevent tripping hazards from cords on the floor and so that the player isn't restricted to sitting right next to the console; these problems aren't present with the nunchuk or classic controller.

QUOTE(SkH @ Jun 3 2008, 10:19 AM)

Click to expand...

And also there's some games too... like, Mario Kart Wii. During in one race, when you get to 1st place, they attack you non-stop with every damned piece of ... garbage.

How does this represent Nintendo being cheap or lazy? This was an intentional design decision to make the game more accessible to specific audiences, not just sloppy programming or a money saving technique on Nintendo's part. In fact, it would have been easier to program and therefore cost them less to make the items truly random instead of weighting by what place you're in, so this was NOT CHEAP AT ALL.

Please, think before posting.

Eternal Myst · Jun 4, 2008

Ummm to the retard who said he wanted to play with a wireless numchuck.Well your a dumbfuck.
Just imagine playing with a wireless numchuck it would not work out.There is a good reason why it is attached to the wiimote.

skweezer · Jun 4, 2008

Eternal Myst said:
Ummm to the retard who said he wanted to play with a wireless numchuck.Well your a dumbfuck.
Just imagine playing with a wireless numchuck it would not work out.There is a good reason why it is attached to the wiimote.

what do u mean "it wont work" ?
there is already a third party wireless nunchuck made.

HowardC · Jun 4, 2008

Just to put a nail in the coffin of this dscussion, let me point out a few very obvious things....

1. Standard harddisks have about the same shelf life as solid-state media. On paper it looks like sd is shorter, but in reality it usually ends up lasting longer than the typical harddrive due to the fact that hdds have moving parts and are prone to mechanical failure long before writes (which are near infinate on a hdd) become a factor.

2. The wii doesn't have memory cards, rather it usues the 512 flash for EVERYTHING, with sd just being a backup. Unless you are really abusing the homebrew the wii's official channels/saves/ect are going to do it in loooong before the homebrew channels will.

3. When exactly are you going to be writing to the flash memory by using homebrew? All the current channels/apps/ect save to the sd card. The only writing going on is when you install the channel, which is a one time deal.

4. The flash memory in the wii is conservatively supposed to last around 10 years with HEAVY writing. You aren't going to be running your wii that long. Even if somehow homebrew were to magically cut this time in half, you still won't be playing with your wii after another 5 years or so. Even if you are the most die-hard fan in the world, after nintendo stops selling games for it, your interest in the wii will dramatically drop off, making it a collectable and not much else. At that point wiis will be real cheap and if your flash is getting sketchy you can just buy a new one.

SkH · Jun 4, 2008

Covarr said:
No. SD only goes up to 2GB. SDHC starts at 4GB, but hasn't caught on enough yet to be considered "the standard".

Also, it should be pointed out that you're comparing the flash memory of a product released in 2006 to what your expectations for 2008 are. When the system was released, 512MB was a lot more expensive than it is now. Personally, I think it's time for an increase in storage or a price drop, but your comparison is stupid nonetheless.
First. The 4 GB, 8 GB, 16 GB, etc... even the 128 GB SDHC card is a SD card!! Don't you come and say it's not an SD card, lol. Okay then, it should be 2 GB. But then again, I would except minimum 4 GB of memory from a next-gen console with not a low price.

Covarr said:

First of all, this makes the classic controller and nunchuk less expensive to the customer; it's not just saving Nintendo money, it's cheaper for US THE CONSUMERS too. It makes associating a specific remote with a specific nunchuk much simpler. On top of all that, this wire is only going to a remote that you're already holding; the biggest reason for wireless controllers is to prevent tripping hazards from cords on the floor and so that the player isn't restricted to sitting right next to the console; these problems aren't present with the nunchuk or classic controller.
Less expensive? The price of the Wii is much more than it actually costs to manufacture!! So you jsut don't tell me how it would be expensive! Like, it would be a game's price? I really don't care they should have done that, or at least they should have given the option, like with the X360. Or, they should have released it long-long ago. Nyko has done not so long ago.

Covarr said:

How does this represent Nintendo being cheap or lazy? This was an intentional design decision to make the game more accessible to specific audiences, not just sloppy programming or a money saving technique on Nintendo's part. In fact, it would have been easier to program and therefore cost them less to make the items truly random instead of weighting by what place you're in, so this was NOT CHEAP AT ALL.

Click to expand...

Well no, that's not what I'm talking about. In Mario Kart DS for example, when I was at 1st place, I didn't got a ton of attack and it didn't was so unfair.

QUOTE(Covarr @ Jun 4 2008, 08:53 PM)

Click to expand...

Please, think before posting.

From where do you know I never think before I post? And this is a very special and long post was, I was thought this over a lot of times. So don't you come and argue over me.

Anorhc · Jun 4, 2008

teq said:
While channels might be more convinient, I'd like to remind you all that the Wii's NAND has a lifespan that's only slightly higher than your SD card.

True. Because the lifespan of an SD card is "incredibly freaking long". Therefore, the Wii's NAND lifespan is "incredibly freaking long" + "some more!"

Way to turn a non-issue into a big deal.

teq · Jun 4, 2008

skweezer said:
the guy that has started this thead is a noob. yes the wii's nand has a lifespan like all things with nand do, but you wont reach its limit in your lifetime even if you try. so stop trying to scare people

Uh, you're one to talk.... 7 posts and zero contribution. I believe most would consider that a "noob". And to top it off, now you're trolling.

QUOTE said:

Standard harddisks have about the same shelf life as solid-state media. On paper it looks like sd is shorter, but in reality it usually ends up lasting longer than the typical harddrive due to the fact that hdds have moving parts and are prone to mechanical failure long before writes (which are near infinate on a hdd) become a factor.

If you actually meant to say "shelf life", then yes, you are correct. Technically, an SD card only needs to be supplied power for a second every few years to archive data for an indefinite amount of time before degredation starts to appear.

However, we aren't talking about archiving.

QUOTE said:

The flash memory in the wii is conservatively supposed to last around 10 years with HEAVY writing. You aren't going to be running your wii that long. Even if somehow homebrew were to magically cut this time in half, you still won't be playing with your wii after another 5 years or so. Even if you are the most die-hard fan in the world, after nintendo stops selling games for it, your interest in the wii will dramatically drop off, making it a collectable and not much else. At that point wiis will be real cheap and if your flash is getting sketchy you can just buy a new one.

Fair enough, but for someone who still has their original consoles, the wear and tear of ten years has left them unplayable.

The Wii will always be the most novel way of playing classic games that's accessible to everyone. After all, by the posts alone, I can gauge that most of the people on this forum weren't even alive for the NES.

Eternal MystUmmm to the retard who said he wanted to play with a wireless numchuck.Well your a dumbfuck.
Just imagine playing with a wireless numchuck it would not work out.There is a good reason why it is attached to the wiimote.

Click to expand...

The only reason the nunchuk is attached to the Wiimote is to save on wireless interconnects.

Nyko actually released a wireless nunchuk that has a reciever that connects to the bottom of the Wiimote. Do some research before making inflammatory posts.

QUOTE

Click to expand...

True. Because the lifespan of an SD card is "incredibly freaking long". Therefore, the Wii's NAND lifespan is "incredibly freaking long" + "some more!"

Way to turn a non-issue into a big deal.

Most manufacturers guarantee 100,000 write cycles to the first block alone, with no guarantee on any other block.

If the Wii's file system doesn't have non-sequential writing, and if you take into account that IOS and the Wii's channels occupy the first few thousand blocks, then you're still looking at a significant amount of wear somewhere beyond that. Think about the Internet Channel alone. It uses the NAND as a file cache, storing as much as 10MB of temporary data at a time and then erasing it when it fills up. That's one 15 minute visit to YouTube.

And that's not even taking into account the read wear that occurs.

My original argument was simple: SD cards are interchangable, the NAND is not. It's just more logical to place all the wear and tear on something you're able to replace.

skweezer · Jun 5, 2008

when you show us a wii that has died because someone had written TOO many times too the nand then we will take u seriously.
i bet that even if you try to reach the limit you wont be able to.

teq · Jun 5, 2008

skweezer said:
when you show us a wii that has died because someone had written TOO many times too the nand then we will take u seriously.
i bet that even if you try to reach the limit you wont be able to.

Who do you think you speak for?

You obviously have no technical understanding of flash memory and an incredulous amount of posts -- all of which are non-contributive. You don't represent anyone but your fellow trolls.

As I've already clearly stated, the Wii's flash memory is comperable to an SD card in terms of longevity, but is probably manufactured to a higher fault tolerance. This means, that down the long run, you're going to wear it out in roughly the same amount of time it would take to wear out an SD card.

Your mileage may vary depending on your use. For example, I was able to kill an SD card in just under 5 years, just by using it with a digital camera.

But it's certain that my NAND will obviously last longer than yours if I opt not to install more channels and read from the SD card instead.

darkhawk · Jun 5, 2008

LoL,
Yet somehow "teq" uv turned your question into a totaly irrelevent topic.
Serisouly though it seems your the only one worried about the WIIs NAND?
Yet have i too see a topic untill this one where someone like you was so worried about the Wii NAND life time.
Im sure there are people who understand the Wiis hardware better than you......yet i dont hear them crying.

teq · Jun 5, 2008

darkhawk said:
LoL,
Yet somehow "teq" uv turned your question into a totaly irrelevent topic.
Serisouly though it seems your the only one worried about the WIIs NAND?
Yet have i too see a topic untill this one where someone like you was so worried about the Wii NAND life time.
Im sure there are people who understand the Wiis hardware better than you......yet i dont hear them crying.

Oh great, another troll.

First of all, this thread didn't start as a question. There are other pros and cons for preferring ELFs over channels, but I chose one of the most obvious ones to outline.

Second, the majority of your post could be condensed to one sentence and your spelling needs some serious work. This forum does have built in spell check. Try using it sometime.

Now, as far as these "other people" are concerned, I don't know exactly who you're referring to. Could it be the people who are stealing Virtual Console titles and installing them? Or maybe people like you, who troll forums and make blatantly ignorant requests, without first searching for the answer? Maybe you're talking about the people working on Wii exploitation, like bushing, who has proven he can afford to lose a Wii?

In any case, the console was given flash memory out of convinience to both the end user and Nintendo. The typical lifespan for their consoles has been about 4 to 5 years, by which they'll have a new console, with potentially new Virtual Console titles. Financially speaking, most people will be able to afford to abuse their NAND.

However, it's completely moronic of you to try and argue that using channels doesn't strain the memory more than it should need to be strained.

ridgecity · Jun 5, 2008

I think Elfs win. They shoot arrows, you know...

and it really depends on available memory...

teq · Jun 5, 2008

ridgecity said:
I think Elfs win. They shoot arrows, you know...

Maybe they can shoot some of the trolls we've been having...

QUOTE(ridgecity @ Jun 4 2008, 04:58 PM) and it really depends on available memory...

Another good argument.

I save my Wii's NAND for WiiWare titles(which obviously can't load any other way) and a channel to load ELFs.

Keeps it nice and simple, and I never have to worry about managing space.

Anorhc · Jun 5, 2008

teq said:
My original argument was simple: SD cards are interchangable, the NAND is not. It's just more logical to place all the wear and tear on something you're able to replace.

I understand your concern, I know that this would be as serious as the DVD lens going bad, or a power supply failing. And the probability of it happening would just be as much. But honestly, how often would this happen? We won't exactly know for sure. Was there no other console system that utilizes NAND? (The PSP comes to mind, but those utilize the memory stick for all its operations.)

If it's something that will eventually happen down the line, then I will count on that being many years from now. I'm not over-concerned, anyway (I run just about everything through ELFs because it's so much easier that way). Either way, a long time is still... pretty long.

zosh · Jun 5, 2008

teq said:
Most manufacturers guarantee 100,000 write cycles to the first block alone, with no guarantee on any other block.
If the Wii's file system doesn't have non-sequential writing, and if you take into account that IOS and the Wii's channels occupy the first few thousand blocks

Assuming you write to the same page over and over again once a second you'd wear it down within just over a day. Include wear leveling and bad sector marking, and a bus-proposed limit to the write speed, assuming 20 MB/sec constant writing we're wearing down the 512 MB of Wii NAND within just over a month. That is constant writing, every second of every minute the Wii is running 24 hours a day.

Thing is: These values are only of academic value. The Wii isn't constantly writing to its NAND. In fact, most of the time it isn't writing to it at all. It is still mostly a disk-based read-only console system. Even if you assume ridiculously high but real-world based daily usage times and write transactions, for example 8 hours a day, 3% of the time writing to the NAND, the Wii's NAND failure statistically happens somewhere within 8 to 10 years. Of constant usage, mind you.

The NAND is certainly not one of the Wii's components to fail first. And if you compare the built-in NAND to SD cards, the SD card is much more likely to fail. Simply for the fact that the mechanical wear on SD cards is much higher than any usage wear on NAND memory.

So, stop panicking. Please. There are a lot of very good reasons why one shouldn't use WADs given the choice. But NAND wear is not one of them.

teq · Jun 5, 2008

zosh said:
The NAND is certainly not one of the Wii's components to fail first. And if you compare the built-in NAND to SD cards, the SD card is much more likely to fail. Simply for the fact that the mechanical wear on SD cards is much higher than any usage wear on NAND memory.

Which is precisely why you should rely on SD cards more than the NAND. The SD card can give way to failure and it won't be the end of the world -- you can just replace them.

The NAND, however, is surface mounted and takes some soldering skills to replace.

QUOTESo, stop panicking. Please. There are a lot of very good reasons why one shouldn't use WADs given the choice. But NAND wear is not one of them.

Who's panicking?

I'm just saying it's valid to prefer using the SD card over the internal NAND, due to eventual wear.

Relys · Jun 5, 2008

Most of us only use our Wii's NAND for WiiWare and VC titles.

HowardC · Jun 6, 2008

teq said:
QUOTE said:

Standard harddisks have about the same shelf life as solid-state media. On paper it looks like sd is shorter, but in reality it usually ends up lasting longer than the typical harddrive due to the fact that hdds have moving parts and are prone to mechanical failure long before writes (which are near infinate on a hdd) become a factor.

Click to expand...

If you actually meant to say "shelf life", then yes, you are correct. Technically, an SD card only needs to be supplied power for a second every few years to archive data for an indefinite amount of time before degredation starts to appear.

However, we aren't talking about archiving.

I meant both. Harddisks only last longer on paper. This is mostly due to human error. Harddrives get dropped, bad power gets fed into the system, ect. Also the bearings fail. The average pc harddrie, for example is supposed to last several years (more than 10) in reality they usually end up lasting much less than that on a machine with heavy use, more like 3-5 years. If the wii had a harddrive in it we'd be in the same boat because typically consoles have very cheap hdds put into them which don't last long, especially when you have it in something psudeo portable that can end up getting dropped. And actually we ARE talking about archiving as well. As I stated in my other response, the wii will have a limited life-span if not by hardware then by the end of the production of new games. At that point wii usage is gonna drop and we are merely concerned about storage. Since heavy writes are only gonna shave off a few years from SEVERAL YEARS of life, the only logical concern one would have is storage.

Also to magically predict the future and declare that the wii will still be the VC console of choice in the future when it is almost certain that the next nintendo system will be better, possibly smaller, with the very same vc support, with possibly more storage space is a little silly. When the next nintendo system comes out 98% of the population will move on and box their wii. Those that still hold on to their wii are going to be sensible enough to realize they are dealing with defunct technology and not be suprised if it fails and they have to buy a new one.

What you are implying with your opinion is something along the lines of someone complaining that the cart slot on their nes has failed, even though it's 25 frikkin years old! When the wii's start to fail they will be too old for us to mind, it's as simple as that.

death69inc · Jun 6, 2008

"Oh great, another troll."

Oh another D_CK !!!!

never understood why people must act like that

202 post or 8 posts does not make someones opinion or information worth less than yours so ............

sorry hate seeing bs like that

no idea how many posts I have but I guess I woudl be a troll shakes head

Hacking Channels vs ELFs

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