The paradigm of False Dichotomy - If you aren't 100% in, you are an enemy. How can we break this?

WalterSlovotsky · Jun 2, 2023

Not sure if this is the same in every other country, considering we have an international community here at Temp, but in America, you are pretty much relegated to black or white, 0 or 1, high or off. Very much dichromatic thinking in our culture lately.

If you have any kind of opinion. ANY. You are automatically making an enemy of everyone who doesn't share that opinion, because there are absolutely no shades of grey allowed in American culture anymore.

Take, for example, gun control laws. If you want assault weapons banned, you are automatically just a pussy and a pacifist to the right. If you want to keep your guns, you are a BIble-thumping redneck to the left.

Pride month. If you do not fully embrace and support the entire month and movement, you are transphobic, homophobic and bigoted, even if you simply don't care and don't hate anyone, you just DON'T CARE. On the flip side, if you DO support Pride Month, you are accused of being a groomer and a pedophile.

If you are a Republican, all Democrats are welfare recipients and groomers. If you are a Democrat, all Republicans are white supremacist rapist child molesters. Weird how both sides want to use "THE CHILDREN" as a foil.

Point being, it's always the extreme, and it's always the worst.

We as a society seem to have a problem with not automatically making absolute enemies out of anyone who disagrees with us, and the DEGREE to which they disagree is irrelevant. Either you are FULLY with me, or you are against me. It seems like more and more people simply cannot separate someone's personal opinion on one topic from the totality of their character.

Do you think there is a way to break out of this?

My view is that the advent of social media and the acceleration of the news cycle has spawned a culture that almost REQUIRES a person to take sides on any issue that ever comes up, and justifies people to villify and despise anyone who doesn't agree with them. We're all scared and angry, and there has to be a better way.

This is why Cancel Culture exists. Snowflakes on all sides. We're in a fucking blizzard.

mrdude · Jun 3, 2023

Remember that time when - Hillary Clinton called Repulicans a basket of deplorables, or the time when Joe Biden said black people weren't black if they didn't vote for the Democrats.

USA has a problem with division and hatred and the people at the top of government are mostly/partly responsible for this. The education system is corrupt and broken, even the legal system and agencies are corrupt and broken in USA.

You can also see the USA trying to push this hateful agenda on other countries, with "if you don't support this stuff that we do, or you don't want what we want" - you'll be sanctioned. If you question vaccine safety or don't want to be coerced - you're a looney. The world news is suppressed as are people's views and websites ban your accounts if you stray from "the message" , people are brainwashed and coereced into thinking that you can change your biological sex with drugs and operations. Then there's the green agenda and the fake global warming, all made up to tax you more and to force you into buying shitty electric cars - good luck trying to escape from the next hurricane or natural disater in one of those.

Yep, USA is on a downward spiral indeed and the youth of today will become the leaders in the future, and to be quite frank they are not impressive. If you don't do what they want or say - they just start screaming and look for a safe space to retreat to. If they don't like what you say they are pretty much the same - basically they are adult children with mental issues. This won't last forever though, at some point they will be cut out by the rest of the sane world as other countries become more and more sick of their bullshit.

China is working on it's own AI as is the rest of the world, you can bet their programmers aren't coding in "woke" code to those systems, eventually that AI will probably just recode the USA's woke AI and then turn it against the woke people. Without money the USA is nothing really, it already has the worlds largest debt at any time in history with nothing to back that debt up. When AI wipes out the US banking system and digital currency and when you have no resources that others want what will become of the USA? The average person doesn't have the knowledge or ability to grow their own food or hunt for meat & the strongest will just end up wiping out the weakest.

Summary: The USA's long term future if it carries on the way it is going doesn't look good for it's long term prospects. It will no doubt go the same way as every empire that's ever existed has and will end up just a bunch of smaller countries. I wouldn't be surprised if Texas was the first to leave USA and become it's own country again.

This is USA in 2023 - nowhere else in the west is like this:

mituzora · Jul 1, 2023

WalterSlovotsky said:
My view is that the advent of social media and the acceleration of the news cycle has spawned a culture that almost REQUIRES a person to take sides on any issue that ever comes up, and justifies people to villify and despise anyone who doesn't agree with them. We're all scared and angry, and there has to be a better way.

You nailed the point on the head right here. This great divide binary belief system is absolutely perpetuated because of social media and echo chambers.

I lean left on a lot of points, but I also understand and agree with some of the points commonly associated with the right as well, and from my experience, people who don't fall on the side of the political spectrum I do are typically okay and decent individuals outside of social media. We all just wanna live our lives.

It kinda goes into the same idea as the TV president where they push outlandish ideas while not doing a damn thing just to get the popular vote. With social media being rampant, this further pushes these outlandish ideas to get a vote. I really don't think anybody is on the far left, or the far right except for the vocal minorites that have been brainwashed for years not to think logically for themselves, but because of social media and said vocal representation pushing these ideas, people tend to believe them. People typically don't think critically anymore, and mindlessly follow the same BS being pushed on social media to get people intentionally enraged, all for a vote.

Xzi · Jul 1, 2023

We need more than two political parties, more than two proposed solutions to any given issue facing the nation. Simple as that. Republicans have taken the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy as far right as it can possibly go, to the extent that you have to identify as a domestic terrorist to fit in with them. You'd think that might benefit Democrats, but it doesn't. it's a detriment to all Americans who have to interact with society in their daily lives.

Delerious · Jul 1, 2023

There are several ways to cool a CPU:

1. Stop putting it under load (cut off news and reading things on social media)

2. Apply a better cooling solution (elect better leadership)

3. Change the ambient temperature or case/internals to allow more/cooler air (change the political landscape)

4. Power it off completely (death)

Taleweaver · Jul 2, 2023

As a foreigner, this is hard to gauge the impact. I read about the incidents, not in the day to day interactions (which is the main topic here).

I'm inclined to agree with @Xzi, but it's a guess.
See... What fascinates me isn't so much that you've only got two parties, but that your pick is either 'right' or 'extreme right'. Okay, and that you're pretending to push democratic values onto other countries: it's almost like you're saying "don't have a shithole country like us", though it's my understanding your parties weren't as far right when you pushed, say, the marshal plan.

But I digress. What I wanted to say was more like 'have some better representation'. News media will always ignore politic views that aren't represented well (just ask Sanders). With the narrow spectrum, you've got to make concessions. Being Christian but against guns? Pick wisely. Pro life but a lgbtq member? No party for you. And so on. Democrats win in numbers for me, but only because of ideology. The gerrymandering and redrawing district lines is just keeping themselves sustained but it's at best worthless to any non politician. Combine that with the ridiculously subjective media and it's just a "us versus them" story.
Which, in a long way, circles to the op: the'other party'is described as everything that the own team is not rather than just a mere ideological difference.

Frankly, you're barely less on the brink of a second civil war than around 1/6. And two years on, that's a horrible thing to have to say. Sorry... But that's my perception. As a foreigner, but how wrong am I on this?

yuyuyup · Jul 2, 2023

Pursuing anything less than political victory is having a losing attitude.

tabzer · Jul 2, 2023

Why settle for two parties when technology can enable everyone to have a stake?

CMDreamer · Jul 2, 2023

The main problem here are political parties. Not in the sense of the very limited view of being only two of them, but in the fact that both of them don't GAF about citizens and they use them at will for their own interests, manipulating them by creating situations and problems (guns, drugs, racism, poverty, homophoby, and the list can go on), all in the false perception of liberty/freedom and protection of their legal rights.

But also people don't GAF about who are representing them, to the point that they're programmed to cast a blind vote because they were told to go against one party or the other, and not because such parties have real concerns about the US situation and their internal affairs.

This is not exclusive to the US, its just that the US have a huge economical machine that other countries keep an eye on them every day, and this situations are on clear view for the rest of the world.

smf · Jul 2, 2023

mrdude said:
Remember that time when - Hillary Clinton called Repulicans a basket of deplorables,

No, I don't remember that.

I remember this, which is factually very different.

Hillary Clinton sparked a controversy Friday night after suggesting half of Donald Trump’s supporters belonged in “a basket of deplorables” which she described as consisting of “the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic – you name it.”

Only 44.9% of republicans supported Donald Trump in the primaries.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

CMDreamer said:
But also people don't GAF about who are representing them, to the point that they're programmed to cast a blind vote because they were told to go against one party or the other, and not because such parties have real concerns about the US situation and their internal affairs.

I think that is because Americans are scared of politicians who GAF, because that sounds like socialism.

They want politicians who will try to screw everyone over, but the voters all think they are somehow clever enough to avoid being screwed over.

KingVamp · Jul 3, 2023

We have too many bad actors that think simply being LGBT, risk destroying America. Not the widening income gap and companies overreach in general. Not the tax cuts for the rich that keep making the deficit worse. Not the amount pollution or even the stagnation of technology due to ",but mah gas". Not the amount of deaths and harm happening due to guns, lack of healthcare and deregulation in general. Not the increasingly unjust voting and banning laws, that even befuddled the current Supreme Court.

Nah, they rather keep jumping onto the next thing that allows them to hate whatever thing they decided to hate on next, even if it is just based on lies. They don't want to actually fix the system because while fixing the system wouldn't solve everything, it would make it even harder for the extremist.

WalterSlovotsky said:
If you have any kind of opinion. ANY. You are automatically making an enemy of everyone who doesn't share that opinion, because there are absolutely no shades of grey allowed in American culture anymore.

Probably because extremist keep getting more say than they should. Luckily RCV, Approval and Star Voting is starting to catch on, even with some Republicans.

WalterSlovotsky said:
Pride month. If you do not fully embrace and support the entire month and movement, you are transphobic, homophobic and bigoted, even if you simply don't care and don't hate anyone, you just DON'T CARE.

Not saying this doesn't happen, but, successful or not, we literally just had people boycotting and messing up stores last month. It isn't just simply a "don't care" attitude.

WalterSlovotsky said:
On the flip side, if you DO support Pride Month, you are accused of being a groomer and a pedophile.

If you are a Republican, all Democrats are welfare recipients and groomers. If you are a Democrat, all Republicans are white supremacist rapist child molesters. Weird how both sides want to use "THE CHILDREN" as a foil.

I mostly see people firing back with "the children", when pointing out the hypocrisy of the people that bring up the children in the first place.

WalterSlovotsky said:
My view is that the advent of social media and the acceleration of the news cycle has spawned a culture that almost REQUIRES a person to take sides on any issue that ever comes up, and justifies people to villify and despise anyone who doesn't agree with them. We're all scared and angry, and there has to be a better way.

There are probably a lot of things that egg on extremism, but I think the main problem is, some people are just stuck in their ways, no matter what.

WalterSlovotsky said:
Do you think there is a way to break out of this?

Luckily, the coming generation of people want to actually fix things and even the current generations aren't completely stuck in their ways. So, in other words, keep fighting against extremism.

Ryccardo · Jul 3, 2023

Xzi said:
We need more than two political parties

As an Italian, where there definitely is a plurality of them - it's nicer for sure but it doesn't work, in part because of the electoral system (there's a hard minimum vote count to pass at all, so you have to form a coalition),
in part because left and right are historical jokes (here like there you have more than a handful of "reds" who support personal freedoms and better public services, the same of "lefties" who want to reduce taxes, a truckload of people of all orientations who support trans or weed rights but nothing gets done),
in part because "imperative mandate" is illegal (in other words, any and all party line, including electoral propaganda, is nonbinding)

Besides, we now have wide mass-market technologies (a plurality of them!) that would enable a very strong majority of the population to directly vote on individual laws, yet there isn't much interest in making the internet an almost-right like water or electricity, in fact they (all) want to cripple it...

Xzi · Jul 3, 2023

Ryccardo said:
As an Italian, where there definitely is a plurality of them - it's nicer for sure but it doesn't work, in part because of the electoral system (there's a hard minimum vote count to pass at all, so you have to form a coalition),
in part because left and right are historical jokes (here like there you have more than a handful of "reds" who support personal freedoms and better public services, the same of "lefties" who want to reduce taxes, a truckload of people of all orientations who support trans or weed rights but nothing gets done),
in part because "imperative mandate" is illegal (in other words, any and all party line, including electoral propaganda, is nonbinding)

Besides, we now have wide mass-market technologies (a plurality of them!) that would enable a very strong majority of the population to directly vote on individual laws, yet there isn't much interest in making the internet an almost-right like water or electricity, in fact they (all) want to cripple it...

Yeah it's hard to point to any one specific system of government and say, "yep, they did everything perfectly," but there's no reason we can't take some of the best ideas from each government piecemeal, either.

Taleweaver · Jul 4, 2023

I realise I haven't talked about the media as much as I wanted to. It isn't exactly new (heck...Michael Moore pointed out the difference in media in the US vs canada in Bowling for columbine, what...20 years ago?), but it's still relevant.

Simply put: US media is out to scare people. It doesn't even matter of whom or what, as long as the scare is perceived as real. Foreigners are always a fun scapegoat, but why go with them if you can scare people of the most stupid things. Like this thing I heard on a rally about a month ago...

Dude: "I'll ban any class teaching critical race theory.

"
Crowd: WHEEEEEE!!!!!!

Dude: "It's amazing. Two years ago, none of you knew what it was and now here you are cheering me on.

"
Crowd: *further cheers*

I mean, fucking really? I really don't want to point the Trump-following cult as being an unanimous blob of brainless redneck hillbillies, but can they at least pretend to have some sense of self awareness?
(don't get me started on the fuss about the banning of "inappropriate" books accidentally including the bible).

...also: yes, you can mark this post as me agreeing with Donald Trump on something. That SECOND part.

tabzer · Jul 4, 2023

Taleweaver said:
I realise I haven't talked about the media as much as I wanted to. It isn't exactly new (heck...Michael Moore pointed out the difference in media in the US vs canada in Bowling for columbine, what...20 years ago?), but it's still relevant.

Simply put: US media is out to scare people. It doesn't even matter of whom or what, as long as the scare is perceived as real. Foreigners are always a fun scapegoat, but why go with them if you can scare people of the most stupid things. Like this thing I heard on a rally about a month ago...

Dude: "I'll ban any class teaching critical race theory. "
Crowd: WHEEEEEE!!!!!!
Dude: "It's amazing. Two years ago, none of you knew what it was and now here you are cheering me on. "
Crowd: *further cheers*

I mean, fucking really? I really don't want to point the Trump-following cult as being an unanimous blob of brainless redneck hillbillies, but can they at least pretend to have some sense of self awareness?
(don't get me started on the fuss about the banning of "inappropriate" books accidentally including the bible).

...also: yes, you can mark this post as me agreeing with Donald Trump on something. That SECOND part.

Oh, please tell us why CRT is a good thing and how economics are inherently racist because, according to CRT, "black people are poor".

Taleweaver · Jul 4, 2023

tabzer said:
Oh, please tell us why CRT is a good thing and how economics are inherently racist because, according to CRT, "black people are poor".

I'm not going to educate myself in a topic I don't care about just to properly answer your post (sorry). My point is that people now hate it being taught in schools because media keeps interviewing people who are against it, thus feeding the scaremongering.

tabzer · Jul 4, 2023

Taleweaver said:
I'm not going to educate myself in a topic I don't care about just to properly answer your post (sorry). My point is that people now hate it being taught in schools because media keeps interviewing people who are against it, thus feeding the scaremongering.

I don't know if that's as true as you think it is. You are practically admitting that you don't know enough about it. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your post to be in support of CRT. I interpret your messaging as suggesting that it's worthy of some benefit of the doubt.

I don't think it is, obviously. I don't see the point of viewing life through the lense of racism unless you want to be a professional racist.

Hanafuda · Jul 4, 2023

mituzora said:
You nailed the point on the head right here. This great divide binary belief system is absolutely perpetuated because of social media and echo chambers.

I lean left on a lot of points, but I also understand and agree with some of the points commonly associated with the right as well, and from my experience, people who don't fall on the side of the political spectrum I do are typically okay and decent individuals outside of social media. We all just wanna live our lives.

It kinda goes into the same idea as the TV president where they push outlandish ideas while not doing a damn thing just to get the popular vote. With social media being rampant, this further pushes these outlandish ideas to get a vote. I really don't think anybody is on the far left, or the far right except for the vocal minorites that have been brainwashed for years not to think logically for themselves, but because of social media and said vocal representation pushing these ideas, people tend to believe them. People typically don't think critically anymore, and mindlessly follow the same BS being pushed on social media to get people intentionally enraged, all for a vote.

Well said. I've never had and/or never been on myspace, facebook, twitter, snapchat, discord, twitch, etc etc. Being a geezer and not into/on social media at all, excepting an account on a few discussion boards like this one, I'm probably stuck in roughly 1998. Not just on my political views of what's, "normal," but also how problems are thought about, reasoned out, dealt with. And it just seems to me that critical introspection and objective analysis of current issues is a dead art. It seems that nobody examines an issue objectively until they reach their own conclusion anymore. Instead they just ape talking points and operate in a world of selection bias where they gather in numbers among those who will reinforce only what they want to hear. (gbatemp's world news etc. sub-forum, is an example of this .... but resetera is 100x worse).

Well, not everyone. But social media has definitely shortened attention spans not only in the usual sense, but also in our tolerance for dissenting views. And it seems to work like the Borg ... step into the ring even a little and you get pulled in. You will be assimilated. Ok, that's hyperbole but I'm sure you've seen this happen, to people of all ages.

So, old man yells at cloud and all, but cellphones and social media .... dey'z the debbil.

Viri · Jul 4, 2023

It's happening because you have people with power that are doing everything they can to prevent another Occupy Wall Street ("Race and political division YES! Class and wealth division NO!") You don't really believe those banks or Microsoft give a shit about gay pride, do you?

You also have China and Russia funding groups that will destabilize the US. China and Russia don't give a fuck if they disagree with x group, as long as they destabilize the US.

smf · Jul 4, 2023

Viri said:
You don't really believe those banks or Microsoft give a shit about gay pride, do you?

I don't know about banks, but I think Microsoft kinda might.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_LGBTQIA+_Employee_&_Allies_at_Microsoft

The paradigm of False Dichotomy - If you aren't 100% in, you are an enemy. How can we break this?

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