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Texas trying to break away from the USA

Kurt91

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So why can't I own nukes or a tank? Would you say that the government is infringing on my rights?

But really, your dismissal of 1/6 really tells me all I need to know as far as what discourse will be like with you on this as well
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They'd have to return any and all federal property, so all military bases would have to be combed through and US property confiscated because Texas wouldn't be entitled to it. I'd imagine any military bases would also be demolished in this hypothetical.

Texas would lose federal funding for disasters they're already incapable of dealing with, and they'd have no military.
Funny enough, you actually can have a tank if you want. The main restrictions is that you have to make it so you won't damage the roads driving on them, but you can have one like any other vehicle. I remember reading something about a father who liked to take his kids to school in the tank from time to time. It was fun, and the other kids liked getting to see it come rolling up to the school to drop his kids off.

Considering how difficult it is to get the actual shells that said tank would fire, the gun is pretty much just considered as decoration since it's completely useless without ammo. The school in question didn't even consider it as bringing a weapon onto school grounds.
 
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Smoker1

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Hell, Biden saying The People cannot go against the Government with AR-15s, that we need F-15s to do so.........OK......so where can The People Obtain FULLY ARMED F-15s???????? Oh, we cant???? So why take away Firearms???? Oh, because of the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence that gives the People Reasons for taking back the Government if needed, and the 2nd Amendment gives the People the means to do so.

Hell, here is a hypothetical scenario: If Trump and his Trumpettes forcibly kept him in Office......how would the People Fight back against that with no Weapons, or Rifles which include AR-15s, AKs, or those "Weapons of War!!!"???? Which by the way, practically ALL Firearms have been used in War, even Shotguns, Revolvers, you name it.
 

Foxi4

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So why can't I own nukes or a tank? Would you say that the government is infringing on my rights?
Yes, because that argument translates to “the government should have the monopoly on force and violence”. It’s an imaginary scenario that doesn’t account for the fact that a nuclear warhead (plus associated infrastructure, since you also need a bomber plane and/or an ICBM launch site, or some other method of delivery) is prohibitively expensive and is highly unlikely to be owned by a single individual). As far as tanks are concerned, they’re just exceptionally armored vehicles, and some are privately owned.
But really, your dismissal of 1/6 really tells me all I need to know as far as what discourse will be like with you on this as well
It’s just a riot. I don’t attach excessive reverence to government buildings - that house is owned by the people. On that day, the people were particularly pissed off. I don’t condone their actions, mind, but the discourse around the event is a storm in a teacup.
 

supermist

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Hell, Biden saying The People cannot go against the Government with AR-15s, that we need F-15s to do so.........OK......so where can The People Obtain FULLY ARMED F-15s???????? Oh, we cant???? So why take away Firearms???? Oh, because of the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence that gives the People Reasons for taking back the Government if needed, and the 2nd Amendment gives the People the means to do so.

Hell, here is a hypothetical scenario: If Trump and his Trumpettes forcibly kept him in Office......how would the People Fight back against that with no Weapons, or Rifles which include AR-15s, AKs, or those "Weapons of War!!!"???? Which by the way, practically ALL Firearms have been used in War, even Shotguns, Revolvers, you name it.
All you gun beards have are hypotheticals
 

Foxi4

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All you gun beards have are hypotheticals
Hypothetical to you, maybe. Part of the reason why no shots were fired in the Gray stand-off is because they were armed to the teeth, and the police knew that.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/...-armed-standoff-ends-after-15-years/78553518/

In all fairness though, I probably wouldn’t want to sit out on a farm for 15 years. A “bit” (ha!) of an overreaction on both the side of the defendant and the police department.
 
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Foxi4

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Stop hoarding all the tinfoil
”Being prepared for the unexpected” is a legitimate reason to own means of self-defense. You don’t *expect* to be robbed, but you have a lock on your front door, one which you lock each time you leave, right? You don’t *know* your house is going to be burglarised in your absence, but you don’t *want* that to happen, so you’ve taken measures to reduce the likelyhood of it happening because you are aware that burglars exist.
 

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I don't expect to be shot at while getting groceries or normal day routines but because the US continues to placate the ammosexuals and gun beards it's something we have to be concerned with.

Hell one of you other mods closed the topic regarding the school shooting.

A reasonable or intelligent discussion simply isn't possible with you gun beards so I'll just leave it at this:

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1848971668
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And for the record, I'm fine with people owning handguns, hunting rifles etc. We just want common sense regulation but that triggers people like the op into an unhinged meltdown about people knocking on every door to confiscate everything.

There's also his other claim about rights that the left would take away and so far they only listed one flimsy, extremely unintelligent one which has been debunked ad nauseam by now.
 
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osaka35

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”Being prepared for the unexpected” is a legitimate reason to own means of self-defense. You don’t *expect* to be robbed, but you have a lock on your front door, one which you lock each time you leave, right? You don’t *know* your house is going to be burglarised in your absence, but you don’t *want* that to happen, so you’ve taken measures to reduce the likelyhood of it happening because you are aware that burglars exist.
How do you feel about requiring people to be highly trained, per type of gun, including gun safety and gun protocol, before being allowed to buy guns? Or requiring mental health training in some form or fashion? (this perspective being rooted in the "well-regulated militia" requirement bit in the States)

I don't think guns are the problem. Hostile and alienating social conditions radicalize the fringe. "Common sense gun laws" is just a bandaid on your mental health epidemic.
I agree, at least in part. Reducing the ability of bad-actors from purchasing guns isn't an invalid way to do things, but addressing the lack of mental health support, the lack of medical support, lack of emotional support, etc., etc. would go a long long way to reducing issues as well. desperate people do tragic things.
 
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wartutor

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So why can't I own nukes or a tank? Would you say that the government is infringing on my rights?

But really, your dismissal of 1/6 really tells me all I need to know as far as what discourse will be like with you on this as well
Post automatically merged:


They'd have to return any and all federal property, so all military bases would have to be combed through and US property confiscated because Texas wouldn't be entitled to it. I'd imagine any military bases would also be demolished in this hypothetical.

Texas would lose federal funding for disasters they're already incapable of dealing with, and they'd have no military.
Texans have paid taxes and shit since the beginning like everyone else. Whos to say that those stockpiles arnt payed for by texans? End up in court like a divorce. They going to have to give each other 50% of the china.
 

Foxi4

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How do you feel about requiring people to be highly trained, per type of gun, including gun safety and gun protocol, before being allowed to buy guns? Or requiring mental health training in some form or fashion? (this perspective being rooted in the "well-regulated militia" requirement bit in the States)
Seeing that I’m a linguist by trade, the language of the second amendment is a big sticking point for me because none of the modern pro gun control advocates are reading it correctly, and I have a feeling that they’re doing this on purpose, not because they’re ignorant. Allow me to explain, and forgive me for the tangent. This is the actual text of the amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

It is constructed from two clauses - the prefatory clause (“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State“) and an operative clause (“the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed”). The former is subordinate to the latter, not the other way around. What it means is that the rights of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed, period, and that the existence of militias is necessary for the safety and security of a free state. We know this because, at the time of writing (and many years after), gun control the way it operates today was unthinkable and would’ve been considered tyranny. Civilians had the same *or often times better* armaments than any standing military force.

Moreover, it *does not* require one to be part of a militia, but it does consider the right to bear arms to be a necessary prerequisite for forming one. It *does not* refer to the National Guard, or the state police, or any organisation related to the state - none of those organisations have even existed. This is specifically a right of citizens, in spite of the state, not in service of it. The right to bear arms is *not* contingent on membership in any such organisation, it’s the existence of such organisations that is contingent on the right to bear arms, as an unarmed militia probably wouldn’t be very effective.

Finally, what does “well-regulated” mean? It most certainly does not imply any form of government regulation. The term “well-regulated” was common in the 18th century and meant “in good working order”. In the context of the second amendment, it implies proper training, discipline and orderly conduct… for militias. The amendment says nothing about the average Joe’s level of training. Let’s remember, we’re talking about a time when a weapon was considered a tool no different than a hoe to till a field with or an axe to fell a tree with.

With all this being said, if we read the text of the second amendment *as it is written* and *as it was intended by the people who wrote it*, which is the only way to correctly interpret text, any sort of regulation of gun ownership of law-abiding citizens is an infringement of their constitutional rights. I say law-abiding, because the constitution allows for limitations of liberty so long as the 5th amendment due process requirements are fulfilled. If “no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law” then a person *can* be deprived of life, liberty or property *with* due process of law. If someone’s *not* a law-abiding citizen, they can be deprived of liberty (prison), their life (death penalty) or their property (seizure). Very simple.

02D6A35C-C580-4053-A6FB-04E2BA089F12.png

To distill all this into one sentence, the second amendment says two things - that militias are necessary for the safety and security of a free state (nominative absolute, it’s stating the obvious, in isolation to the rest of the sentence) *and* that the *people’s* right to bear arms shall not be infringed (the actual enumerated right).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_absolute

This kind of grammatical construction is “fancy-shmancy” and not commonly used nowadays, which is why it throws most people for a loop. They say that the arms must be well-regulated, or that you must be part of a militia, or that you must have military-grade training to bear arms, or other various misinterpretations - the second amendment doesn’t say that. It says “shall not be infringed”, and that’s what it’s supposed to mean, with no caveats.

Now, you’ll have to rephrase the question. Do I think people should be well-trained and have their wits about them when operating potentially deadly machines? Yes. Do I think that the state has the right to decide how many inches of stock are permitted before the exact same mechanism is deemed illegal, or whether or not people are allowed to purchase silencers (which are primarily safety devices and do not increase the lethality of the weapon they’re attached to, because real life isn’t Hollywood)? No.

On the subject of sanity, who’s making that estimation? Not the state, I hope - I’m pretty sure that’s a job for healthcare professionals.
 
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Xzi

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Mexican cartels would likely do a better job of running the state than Greg Abbott, not that that would require much more than keeping the lights on. As funny as it would be trading Texas for a few bags of Takis though, this is a headline every year, every year their bluff is called, and every year there is no action taken. For a state that claims to hate Hollywood, their politicians sure are hyper-focused on being performative.
 
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supermist

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Texans have paid taxes and shit since the beginning like everyone else. Whos to say that those stockpiles arnt payed for by texans? End up in court like a divorce. They going to have to give each other 50% of the china.
Yes, they currently pay some federal taxes (red states take more from the fed than contribute FYI) so because of this they are currently paying for those services such as military and disaster relief.

They wouldn't be entitled this this if they left. That's like whining that you can't watch Netflix anymore after cancelling a subscription.

If you're treating WMDs as court divorce items that's a laughable comparison for one, but entertaining this argument they'd be entitled to 1/50th of the stockpile at most
 

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Mexican cartels would likely do a better job of running the state than Greg Abbott, not that that would require much more than keeping the lights on. As funny as it would be trading Texas for a few bags of Takis though, this is a headline every year, every year their bluff is called, and every year there is no action taken. For a state that claims to hate Hollywood, their politicians sure are hyper-focused on being performative.
The state of Texas has a higher GDP than the entire Russian Federation, and it is *not* close. Secession would cause massive disruption in the several markets, including fuel (particularly petroleum and coal), computer electronics (accounted for 20.4% of Texas exports in 2016, in large part thanks to Texas Instruments), chemicals, cotton, beef, dairy and many more. You’d be left wanting for a little bit more than Takis, I assure you.
 

Xzi

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The state of Texas has a higher GDP than the entire Russian Federation, and it is *not* close.
I'd guess even North Korea is closing in on that milestone with the way Putin is sending his entire working class through the meatgrinder and causing the college-educated to flee.

Secession would cause massive disruption in the several markets, including fuel (particularly petroleum and coal), computer electronics (20.4% of Texas exports, in large part thanks to Texas Instruments), chemicals, cotton, beef, dairy and many more. You’d be left wanting for a little bit more than Takis, I assure you.
It's a silly hypothetical for any number of reasons, first and foremost being that without the support of the military or national guard, the state wouldn't last two weeks as an independent nation. The US would let it fail or be overrun and then just end up annexing it all over again.
 

Foxi4

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I'd guess even North Korea is closing in on that milestone with the way Putin is sending his entire working class through the meatgrinder and causing the college-educated to flee.

It's a silly hypothetical for any number of reasons, first and foremost being that without the support of the military or national guard, the state wouldn't last two weeks as an independent nation. The US would let it fail or be overrun and then just end up annexing it all over again.
Of course it’s a hypothetical - it hasn’t happened. I understand that you’re being facetious, but Texas has the second-highest GDP and third-highest federal tax revenue out of all the states. The U.S. wouldn’t “just watch”, it’d be too busy trying to patch the enormous hole in the budget after one of the top performing states in the union has decided to just leave. Moreover, out of all the states out there, Texas probably has the highest chance of being self-sufficient - Texas in the no.1 exporter among all the states, and again, it’s not close.

4414C83D-4104-4F4A-BA94-876C25B959F6.jpeg

They’d still be making bank in isolation, and they certainly wouldn’t starve - the state has highly developed agriculture. On the flip side, you’d be weeping at the pump.

It’s certainly a nightmare scenario - for the U.S., not for Texas.
 

Smoker1

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Seeing that I’m a linguist by trade, the language of the second amendment is a big sticking point for me because none of the modern pro gun control advocates are reading it correctly, and I have a feeling that they’re doing this on purpose, not because they’re ignorant. Allow me to explain, and forgive me for the tangent. This is the actual text of the amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

It is constructed from two clauses - the prefatory clause (“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State“) and an operative clause (“the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed”). The former is subordinate to the latter, not the other way around. What it means that the rights of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed, and the reason why they can’t be infringed is because it is necessary for the safety and security of a free state. We know this because, at the time of writing (and many years after), gun control the way it operates today was unthinkable and would’ve been considered tyranny. Civilians had the same *or often times better* armaments than any standing military force.

Moreover, it *does not* require one to be part of a militia, but it does consider the right to bear arms to be a necessary prerequisite for forming one. It *does not* refer to the National Guard, or the state police, or any organisation related to the state - none of those organisations have even existed. This is specifically a right of citizens, in spite of the state, not in service of it.

Finally, what does “well-regulated” mean? It most certainly does not imply any form of government regulation. The term “well-regulated” was common in the 18th century and meant “in good working order”. In the context of the second amendment, it implies proper training, discipline and orderly conduct… for militias. The amendment says nothing about the average Joe’s level of training. Let’s remember, we’re talking about a time when a weapon was considered a tool no different than a hoe to till a field with or an axe to fell a tree with.

With all this being said, if we read the text of the second amendment *as it is written*, which is the only way to correctly interpret text, any sort of regulation of gun ownership of law abiding citizens is an infringement of their constitutional rights. I say law-abiding, because the constitution allows for limitations of liberty so long as the 5th amendment due process requirements are fulfilled. If “no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law” then a person *can* be deprived of life, liberty or property *with* due process of law. Very simple.

Now, you’ll have to rephrase the question. Do I think people should be well-trained and have their wits about them when operating potentially deadly machines? Yes. Do I think that the state has the right to decide how many inches of stock are permitted before the exact same mechanism is deemed illegal, or whether or not people are allowed to purchase silencers (which are primarily safety devices and do not increase the lethality of the weapon they’re attached to, because real life isn’t Hollywood)? No.

On the subject of sanity, who’s making that estimation? Not the state, I hope - I’m pretty sure that’s a job for healthcare professionals.
DAMN RIGHT!!! So with Dems and Gun Control Advocates trying to Limit the People with how much Ammunition, and what Firearms we can have, it is almost like they want to make sure The People cannot go against the Government if it ever is needed.
 

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