Persona 4 and the benefits of imperfect representation

In recent years, proper representation for LGBT characters has become an increasingly hot topic amongst gamers. There's a dearth of gay characters in gaming, which has naturally led to a lot of demand for more representation. While that's admirable, I feel the fervor for gay representation can sometimes be reductive to the nuances in sexuality. Case in point: Kanji Tatsumi, a gay character who's been denounced recently by certain parts of the Persona fandom for being noncommittal in his role as a gay representative for the series.

Persona 4 is about helping people deal with their repressed emotions. Each dungeon is a physical manifestation of somebody's psyche, and the boss will be their Shadow, a distorted version of how they view the parts of themselves they can’t accept. Kanji’s dungeon is a men’s bathhouse; his Shadow is a lispy, flirtatious man running around in a towel. The message seems fairly obvious: Kanji is a closeted homosexual. But things aren’t as cut and dry as that.

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I think this is where a lot of people’s issues with Kanji’s story come from. It feels a little like queerbaiting—teasing a queer character early on to get the attention of fans desperate for LGBT representation, only to backpedal later and say “Don’t worry guys, he’s not really gay!” I understand the frustration at that, but I think dismissing Kanji as a bad LGBT character simply because of it does a massive disservice to the story he tells about the complexity of sexuality.

Kanji’s family owns a textile shop, which leads to Kanji developing a knack for knitting and sewing at a young age. He gets mocked for being too girly and becomes isolated from the world, as both sexes mock a man with such feminine interests. Partially to reaffirm his masculinity and partially to solidify the wedge between him and the world that rejected him, Kanji adopts an overly tough and brutish persona, replacing people’s contempt for him with fear. But that insecurity over his lack of masculinity stays embedded, and possibly manifests as his confused sexuality.

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We first see Kanji’s attraction to men when he meets Naoto Shirogane, a woman who’s presenting as a man at the time. (Whether or not Naoto is another example of queerbaiting is a whole other can of worms I won’t get into.) After discovering she’s a woman, he continues being attracted to her. Of course, the root of his attraction to Naoto is that she’s one of the few people to accept him and make him feel valued or safe. But it leaves the question of his orientation murkier, leading to cries of noncommittal representation being lobbied against the game.

It’s important to note, however, that just because Kanji’s only love interest is female, that doesn’t stop him from being a queer character. Nothing definitive is ever stated about Kanji’s sexuality, and more crucially, Kanji seems just as fervent for answers as his fans. For example, when the prospect of Naoto entering a beauty pageant comes up, putting her in a position where she would dress more traditionally feminine than she does otherwise, Kanji begs her to do so as his ”doubts will finally be cleared."

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The idea of not understanding your own sexuality may seem alien to some people—whether you’re straight or gay or anywhere in between, you just like what you like, right?—but the complexity and range of feelings present can be hard to navigate as a teenager, especially for those who have had self-doubt instilled in them from isolating experiences as a youth. Your natural instinct is to cling to labels, these safe harbors of identity that define the people around you, who seem so much more secure than you. As helpful as labels are as shorthands for communicating, they're not always the most robust at nailing down one's feelings.

Personally speaking, I consider myself mostly straight, as I’m attracted to women but have always had a slight attraction to men since I hit puberty. As silly as it sounds now, the underwhelming nature of that attraction drove me crazy as a kid, as it left me without a comfortable label and identity. Girls caught my attention everywhere I went, yet I couldn’t help but notice—and appreciate—men with some degree of regularity. I didn’t think I was gay, but those pesky thoughts reminded me I wasn’t totally straight either. My conception of bisexuality at the time was that it was a purely equal, balanced attraction to either sex, so I couldn’t find any sense of identity there either. I would try to force thoughts into my head, to cut out the unwelcome ones and force myself to be either gay or straight. I didn’t care which one; I just wanted to know where I belonged.

persona-4-shadow-kanji.png

This led to panic and rumination over my sexuality. I’d heard stories of men who wouldn’t come out of the closet until middle age, sometimes having a wife and kids, so I worried that I was gay and would waste much of my life in the closet. Maybe I was gay and I was just trying to suppress my feelings after growing up in a household with four older brothers who were constantly hurling gay jokes, usually at me. Or maybe I was straight and the vague attraction to men was implanted in me from internalizing those jokes. Maybe I was straight and was simply so desperate for acceptance and love that I’d be willing to settle for a man. I realize these ideas are ridiculous, but without any grounding sense of identity back then, I was floundering to simply understand who I was. After all, I’d never seen anyone going through what I was going through, so I must have been the only one. It must just be a problem with my screwy head.

I wish there was a more narratively satisfying conclusion to this story, but after a few years of this, more pressing concerns came up and I simply decided that I was happy to call myself straight and live that way, but to keep my mind open if the opportunity to explore those feelings ever arose. I’d be lying if I said I still didn’t have some lingering frustration at the lack of consistency in my sexuality, but I’m still taking things one day at a time.

I can’t help but wonder, however, if seeing a story like Kanji’s would have helped me back then. Some simple reassurance that things aren’t as easy for everyone as they seem sometimes. Something to let me know it’s okay to not understand yourself, as long as you can accept the answers you find in your own time. I realize there's another side to this coin, that there are gay gamers out there who needed to see someone like Kanji fully embrace his homosexuality and be out and proud, and I empathize with how hard it would be to see him heel turn and, conveniently, unknowingly be attracted to a woman the entire time. Regardless, I think the backlash to his story is a bit overblown, and even reductive to the case for LGBT representation. Sure, I'd love to see a fully out Persona character someday, but to pretend that Kanji doesn't represent the LGBT community is to ignore the huge, complex spectrum of sexuality that’s out there.
 

Jhyrachy

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European here.
To me it looks a lot (from what we perceive from america) like that a big part of the discussion about rapresentation in western media is made by people trying to one up eachover in who is the most vocal supporter, missing completely the point of the rapresentation in the first place.

Is pretty much accepted that sexuality is a spectre and that a lot of people are somewhere in between, even if most will still be heavily leaning on one of the side.
but what we see is that instead of accepting it as it is there are very vocal people who try to categorize and put labels on every single person, forcing them in premade categories and stereotypes, with really bad results (like the countless tumblr gender)

For this reason Kanji can appear as a 'bad' rapresentation, while I think is quiet a good.
The reality is not black or white, is a shade of gray, and a huge number of teenagers (the demographic of the characters) doubts their own sexuality in multiple ways, and this is well expressed in the game.

We do not need a clear cut answer if a character is gay or not, because the sexuality itself of a person should not define it, but that how is lived helps define it.

In western media we need less "YES I'M GAY, SUPER GAY, ULTRA GAY, LOOK AT HOW GAY I AM" characters, that are often just token to pander to specific demographic, and more "This is my story, that also happens to include me being gay" kind of characters.

Heterosexual characters do not have their heterosexuality as their main point of the personality, I do not see why homosexual ones should have it.

Point in case, Kenji.
We know what he likes, we know how people reacted to it and how he changed in reaction to them. We know his internal troubles and his need to be accepted. We do not need a label that say "yes, he is gay" because it will add anything to the character, would be just pointless pandering.
 

ChaosEternal

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This is a solid, nuanced analysis. It's nice to see such a level-headed take. It also helps to remember that Persona is ultimately a Japanese series and as such may not perfectly fit western sensibilities.
 

VartioArtel

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Is almost like the person that wrote this did not actually play the game or something
Because the really mess up here
So because their interpretation of a game character doesn't match up with yours and they've clearly played to at least the end-gameish sections based on the Naoto swimsuit part, they didn't play the game and they messed up?

...Are you alright?
 

Valwinz

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So because their interpretation of a game character doesn't match up with yours and they've clearly played to at least the end-gameish sections based on the Naoto swimsuit part, they didn't play the game and they messed up?

...Are you alright?
It kinda is an issue when it on the front page as fact this is not a opinion them

Next they gonna write Naoto is trans lol
 
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Chary

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Shoutout to that time on call where I spent like an hour watching P4 let’s plays to fact check your “clear my doubts” line and not let you confuse it with the anime’s completely different and more memorable line. Editorial integrity Persona 4 fanaticism ftw
 
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I've probably said this to the point of sounding like a broken record, but all Life is Opportunistic.

Our Ancestors didn't define Sexuality as the Duality the Modern Western World uses today; in fact, no so many centuries ago, even the Fathers of Western Thought were Opportunistic. The Greeks thought it was a normal phase in a man's life to enjoy sexual intercourse with boys, and it was also an integral part of their Mentorship; there was no closed definition and, in the normal course of one's life, they freely transitioned from relationships with both sexes.

Ditto the Primitive Europeans who were Pagans at the time of the Roman Empire; their historical notes show that this was common.

If one is to analyse today's Representation, then it's best to go all the way to its Root Cause; Religion.

The commonality shared by the Classical Greeks, the Roman Empire and Pagan Europeans were the nature of their Religion - Polytheism.
The Polytheistic Life View is that no one Deity is Good or Evil and that everything is Grey. This can still be seen in Hinduism, Daoism, Shinto and similar beliefs based on Natural Order.

Monotheism literally whitewashed everything into the asinine naivety of a Black-and-White World, where one is either or.
You are either Good or Bad, Right or Wrong, Heterosexual or Homosexual.

In the case of Persona 4, Kanji is Kanji; he doesn't need to be defined and boxed into a definition.
That phrase is used a lot in the LGBTQ Community but it's hypocritical when they themselves start boxing into a definition that is LGBTQ.

It is just Nature.
And that is why the Modern World is more backwards than the Past, despite Technology.
I could go on, but I'll leave it at that.
 
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The Catboy

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What's with people looking for accurate representation? These are works of fiction, nothing more, nothing less. If you don't like the characters or story, feel free to make your own but don't tell creative people how to do things the way you like
We literally do make our own and people get all “Why does everything have to be gay?!” Or “forced diversity.”
Honestly, I am happy when I see representation in media. There’s such an overwhelmingly low amount of LGBT+ that it’s just nice to see it every so often outside of an LGBT+ centric media.
As for Persona 4, I am on the fence. On hand, I would have been happy if they concluded the story with him being bisexual. On the other hand, leaving it up in the air is a good reminder that sexuality and gender can be confusing. I’ve honestly struggled a lot with my identity and I’ve kind of shifted around a lot as a result. So it’s actually pretty accurate for them to leave his situation unresolved, because sometimes it just be like that.
 
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Chary

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It kinda is an issue when it on the front page as fact this is not a opinion them

Next they gonna write Naoto is trans lol
I’d love to know how you read so many “I think”, “it seems”, and “I feel that”s from the editorial article and came to the conclusion that it was fact.
 

VartioArtel

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It kinda is an issue when it on the front page as fact this is not a opinion them

Next they gonna write Naoto is trans lol
Are you sure what you think is the fact though? I mean their analysis seems a lot more spoton than whatever you think, which we don't know as you've yet to clarify it. You're basically just chewing at them without explaining WHY they're wrong, because "lol".

And as Chary said - nowhere did they say this was written as a factual article. If anything, you feel like you're trying to defend your isolated views without actually reading the article. You seem insecure in your own beliefs and want to make people doubt theirs/others beliefs so that you can convince people of yours.
 

Apex

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The game doesn't commit to an answer because Kanji never really comes to a conclusion. It's not like he knows and he's just hiding it from everyone, he's confused, and the situation with Naoto only serves to make him more confused.

The only reason he thinks he may be gay in the first place is society projecting the stereotype that his interests are inherently gay. At first he is in denial and acts as tough and macho as possible. He fears what society would think of him if they knew his gentle side and his interest in sewing/crafting, and that's why his shadow is a hyper-effeminate stereotype. As you advance the social rank with him though he starts to embrace it and stops caring what others may think of him.

There's no real evidence that he's gay, just that he's confused about it. He mistakes Naoto's interest in him as romantic, and follows through with it to see if he really has feelings one way or the other, that's why when it's revealed Naoto is a woman, he still shows interest.
 

anhminh

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It is pretty normal for a man to admire other man beauty. Most glorious art about beautiful man was made by other man, not woman. The one who write about all the sexy gods and heroes throughout history are also men.

So yeah, attracted to other guy doesn't make you anymore gay than your ancestor did. You don't have to question your sexuality for something as trivia as that.
 

SG854

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It is pretty normal for a man to admire other man beauty. Most glorious art about beautiful man was made by other man, not woman. The one who write about all the sexy gods and heroes throughout history are also men.

So yeah, attracted to other guy doesn't make you anymore gay than your ancestor did. You don't have to question your sexuality for something as trivia as that.
I agree

I think alot of people are confused. This whole gay/trans movement have people confused. I'm starting to see alot of people come out as trans which is odd to me. It's only suppose to be a small minority of the population. It still is but the amount seems a little too much for me to believe it.

People are starting to question if they are gay or trans when in reality they are not, just because of some thoughts they have. I mean people have thoughts about alot of things. Like beating someone up or even imagine themselves as a murderer or something. But most never actually act it out. I always see women comment on how hot and attractive someone is in the same sex. But they are not actually gay. They just recognize when someone is attractive. If that was the case then every single women is gay. Which I don't believe. It's more acceptable for a woman to coment the same sex attraction but for a male it isn't, I noticed.

I just think the whole gay/trans movement is confusing people. The number of people that are actually gay and trans is very small.


It kind of reminds me of the false memory syndrome phenomenon. A couple of psychiatrist got sued in the 90's because they were implanting false memories in little girls, making girls think they were being molested by their fathers but in reality with evidence it never happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome

The human mind isnt perfect and is susceptible to trickery and confusion. And things can be put into people's head making them think things they are not.

Just my opinion. I think this could be happening here. Things are just confusing people on what they really are. I could be wrong but this is what I think at the moment.
 

BitMasterPlus

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I mean, if you're looking for representation and solidarity from fictional characters, you've got your own issues you need to work out. A character is a character first, and almost everything else comes second.

I've actually seen incredibly very few examples of a gay or trans character in fiction that I actually liked, because it wasn't their sole personality for one. And guess what all the examples I've seen have in common? None of them were made in America, or other English speaking countries. It's usually in foreign films they're able to pull off a decent job of it without going "woke" to the point of making hate the shitty LGBTQRSTUVZDGFHK+ movement than I already do.
 

Xzi

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So yeah, attracted to other guy doesn't make you anymore gay than your ancestor did. You don't have to question your sexuality for something as trivia as that.
So reject modernity, return to nude Greco-Roman wrestling?

I just think the whole gay/trans movement is confusing people. The number of people that are actually gay and trans is very small.
Ridiculous. This is simply the first time in a long time when it's been acceptable to come out as gay or trans in many places. It'll still get you killed in a lot of others. And of course it helps that the internet offers a degree of anonymity, as some people can't feel accepted in their local communities/families.
 

jt_1258

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Inteligent me: ahh yes, it is neat to see the side where one is uncomfortable due to the current societal norms leading to more realistic potrail
that one brain cell: gay dungeon gay dungeon gay dungeon
 

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