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Poll: did Trump really win the 2020 election?

Do you believe Trump's claims that he's the one who actually won the 2020 election?

  • I'm NOT a Trump supporter - I accept the general consensus that Biden won the 2020 election fairly

    Votes: 194 67.1%
  • I am a Trump supporter - I *refuse* Biden's presidency claim, Trump actually WON

    Votes: 29 10.0%
  • I am a Trump supporter - I acknowledge that Biden won, but *THE LEFT CHEATED* so it's illegitimate

    Votes: 14 4.8%
  • I'm a Trump supporter but I believe in the general consensus that Biden won the 2020 election fairly

    Votes: 14 4.8%
  • Other (don't care / don't waste my time with stupid polls)

    Votes: 38 13.1%

  • Total voters
    289

Foxi4

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Trump has said lots of contradictory things, it's part of his strategy to make everyone think he stands what what they want. It's why he ends up going to church once a year for a photo opportunity.
At the end of the day, Trump didn't invite David Duke for a photo op, but Obama did invite Sharpton, and interacted with Farrakhan in the past. I don't remember him denouncing either, despite both having big blemishes on their records in regards to anti-semitism and homophobia. If we're going to use the bigotry measuring stick then be sure to use the same one for both.
 

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Each State gets representation under the Electoral College. If we voted with the popular vote certain states wouldn't be fairly represented and contrary to popular belief we do not live under a democracy, but a constitutional republic made up of 50 states and some outlying territories.

Even in the absence of an electoral college, states reserve the right to "vote" one way or the other - the votes of individual citizens play no part in the selection process on a federal level, they only on the state level. Choosing the president by means of a national popular vote would require amending the constitution, and "red states" will never approve such a change since it goes directly against their interests. Any changes to the constitution require approval of 2/3rds of the states, so your hypothetical question is a thought experiment and not a plausible scenario.

When quoting, perhaps try to stay on topic of the conversation the person you quoted was in. The point is obviously way over both of your heads. Purposefully or not is another matter altogether. Reading COMPREHENSION also plays a pretty big part in things. The both of you are twisting the conversation to fit your own prerogatives. Go back. Read. Slowly. Then get back to me.
 

Foxi4

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When quoting, perhaps try to stay on topic of the conversation the person you quoted was in. The point is obviously way over both of your heads. Purposefully or not is another matter altogether. Reading COMPREHENSION also plays a pretty big part in things. The both of you are twisting the conversation to fit your own prerogatives. Go back. Read. Slowly. Then get back to me.
I don't need to. I fully understand your point, your point just happens to be a silly thought experiment that is inapplicable to the United States federal government. You are correct in saying that the total number of voters, or the popular vote tally, does not change if you move voters from one state to the other. You are incorrect in saying that it wouldn't change the outcome - EC or no EC. The state legislatures are elected directly in individual states, the chief executive is not - they're elected by means of representative democracy. Removing the EC from the equation doesn't change that, the burden of choosing the president still lies on state legislatures, not the citizens. You'd have to rewrite significant portions of the constitution to change that, and there's no support for that, so we're discussing an imaginary hypothetical. You're focusing on a number that has no bearing on the final result, not because of the EC, but because of how the United States operate.
 

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At the end of the day, Trump didn't invite David Duke for a photo op, but Obama did invite Sharpton, and interacted with Farrakhan in the past. I don't remember him denouncing either, despite both having big blemishes on their records in regards to anti-semitism and homophobia.

If you exclude everyone who has ever done anything bad from politics then you're going to have zero politicians.

How they handle themselves now is more important. Can you give an example of homphobia and anti-semitism for Sharpton?

Trump doesn't appear to have changed.

If we're going to use the bigotry measuring stick then be sure to use the same one for both.

Why is it relevant? Are you saying that if Obama condemns someone for something, then it would change how you feel about Trump? That is rather twisted logic. It would be like saying it's unfair to try someone for murder, because not all the other murders have been solved.

I'm not sure why Obama is relevant either?

Removing the EC from the equation doesn't change that, the burden of choosing the president still lies on state legislatures, not the citizens.

I think it's safe to assume that if someone is talking about removing the EC then they are talking about removing the burden from the state too, not just getting rid of the EC and replacing it with something practically identical.

So I disagree that you fully understand his point.
 
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If you exclude everyone who has ever done anything bad from politics then you're going to have zero politicians.
Don't tempt me with a good time.
How they handle themselves now is more important. Can you give an example of homphobia and anti-semitism for Sharpton?
It'll be my pleasure.
White folks was in the caves while we (blacks) was building empires. (...) We built pyramids before Donald Trump ever knew what architecture was. (...) We taught philosophy and astrology and mathematics before Socrates and them Greek homos ever got around to it. (...) So [if] some cracker come and tell you 'Well, my mother and father blood go back to the Mayflower,' you better hold your pocket. That ain't nothing to be proud of. That means their forefathers was crooks” - Al Sharpton, 1994
"Brother Sikhulu -- stand up, brother -- on 125th Street. I want to make it clear to the radio audience -- and do you hear -- that we will not stand by and allow them to move this brother, so that some white interloper can expand his business on 125th Street. And we're asking the Buy Black Committee to go down there, and I'm gonna go down there, and do what is necessary to let them know that we are not turnin' 125th Street back over to outsiders as it was done in the early part of this century." - Al Sharpton Rally, 1995
“If the Jews want to get it on, tell them to pin their yarmulkes back and come over to my house (...) All we want to say is what Jesus said: If you offend one of these little ones, you got to pay for it (...) No compromise, no meetings, no coffee klatch, no skinnin’ and grinnin’.” Al Sharpton, 1991
In addition to calling Jews "white interlopers" he's also on record calling them "diamond merchants", "bloodsucking Jews" and "Jewish bastards". There are so many more examples, both from past and present, that you're spoiled for choice - I simply picked nice, juicy ones where he's using slurs. He has some kind of obsession with Zionism and he's confident that it's a movement engineered to "put the black man down" or somesuch nonsense. He's a radical, and always has been - he's on record calling moderate black Democrats "cocktail sip Negr*es" or "yellow n*ggers", so it's clear that "moderate" is not his style.

In terms of notable actions, 1991 Sharpton led a protest in Crown Heights, marching right next to a protester holding a sign saying "White man is the Devil", all the while chanting "Kill the Jews". The protest turned into a race riot, 152 police officers and 38 civilians were injured. Two murders had occurred during the event, one of a Jewish student and one of an Italian who just happened to be dressed up in dark colours, so he "looked" like an orthodox jew. Three days of pogrom, all over a car accident.
"The world will tell us he was killed by accident. Yes, it was a social accident. (…) It’s an accident to allow an apartheid ambulance service in the middle of Crown Heights. (…) Talk about how Oppenheimer in South Africa sends diamonds straight to Tel Aviv and deals with the diamond merchants right here in Crown Heights.” - Al Sharpton

There was even a resolution in Congress aiming at his condemnation, but sadly it was never voted on:

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/106/hconres270/text
I've spoilered Sharpton's words and actions since I consider them unacceptable on this forum, we have slightly higher standards than American public life, it seems. In all fairness, Sharpton occasionally apologises for this kind of rhetoric, which is nice, but he's not a very good salesman, because I'm not buying it.
 

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He's several hundred million in debt
We really need to do a better job at teaching Economics. It seems concepts such as wealth, equity, and debt are not well understood (perhaps this is why there remains such hostility towards capitalism).
Debt is not a sound metric for determining net worth, you need to factor in equity and investment into the equation, as well as other factors not within the scope of this discussion.
(I have not read beyond this comment, so if these concepts were already discussed, please forgive me).
 

Xzi

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We really need to do a better job at teaching Economics. It seems concepts such as wealth, equity, and debt are not well understood (perhaps this is why there remains such hostility towards capitalism).
Debt is not a sound metric for determining net worth, you need to factor in equity and investment into the equation, as well as other factors not within the scope of this discussion.
(I have not read beyond this comment, so if these concepts were already discussed, please forgive me).
His assets and equity are negligible according to the same tax returns I referenced. If not for the constant stream of dark money flowing from Deutche Bank to his pockets over the last couple decades, he'd probably be over a billion in the red.
 
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personally i lean more towards supporting trump than supporting biden (though if i was american i would have voted jo jorgensen), and i would like to see it actually get investigated in depth before coming to any conclussion
 

Xzi

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personally i lean more towards supporting trump than supporting biden (though if i was american i would have voted jo jorgensen), and i would like to see it actually get investigated in depth before coming to any conclussion
The investigative period is over, they had two weeks and found nothing. The votes are practically all certified and the transition has begun.

Shocking I know, since it's so difficult to tell the two apart when you put Sherlock Holmes and Rudy "Drips" Giuliani in the same room together. /s
 

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A link would have been better, but then you wouldn't want someone checking your sources..
All of those statements are easily googlable and well-known. Some are literally on his Wikipedia page. God forbid you perform a basic Internet search in the age of right-clicking on anything to do so instantly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Sharpton

Not only that, I *have* provided a link - a link to the condemnation by Congress which mentions them. He's retracted many of those statements since, but the way I see it, he's a grifter like all race hustlers and merely adjusted his public statements to the current social justice trends. He is, and always has been, a bigoted individual.
 

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He's retracted many of those statements since, but the way I see it, he's a grifter like all race hustlers and merely adjusted his public statements to the current social justice trends.

But to be clear, you still support Trump as president even though he has said bad things and the fact that someone else with no political power has said bad things that justifies your support?
 

Foxi4

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But to be clear, you still support Trump as president even though he has said bad things and the fact that someone else with no political power has said bad things that justifies your support?
You're changing the subject. My statement was very simple - Obama deepened social divides in America, one of the reasons why they deepened were his not-infrequent meetings (I believe Sharpton visited the White House 74 times, perhaps more) with race hustlers. I then provided evidence of Sharpton being a grifter and race hustler, since that was questioned despite a sizable public record of inflammatory and racially charged rhetoric. With that, my argument is complete and closed. If you honestly want more detailed sources for each and every individual statement then I can do that too, but honestly, with Sharpton's record you're asking me to prove that water is in fact wet. This isn't a weird revelation I'm dropping here, the calls for both parties to distance themselves from him were loud and clear in the early 2000's. Now he's being embraced again with his new, softened tone, but I don't have the memory of a goldfish and I don't believe in his sudden, magical transformation. I also have a good idea why battle cries like "pigs in blankets, fry'em like bacon" have resurfaced recently. "No justice, no peace" is another Sharpton slogan from two decades ago, IIRC, and we're hearing it again now.
 

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You're changing the subject.

No, I'm not. I'm taking it back to the subject about Trump.

I was only going to bother reading up on him if it would make a difference to the discussion on Trump and it clearly won't because you are only bringing him up to change the subject away from Trump & not because you want everyone to be judged the same.
 
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Foxi4

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No, I'm not. I'm taking it back to the subject about Trump.

You are trying to change the subject by talking about someone who you don't like who isn't a politician.

I just wanted to make sure that you are doing it in bad faith & you confirmed it.
Maybe you should follow the conversation then, perhaps you'd know how we ended up here if you did. As a reminder, we were talking about the racial divide in America, which in my opinion Trump has inherited from Obama rather than created himself - something he's often accused of. You, on the other hand, were (unsuccessfuly) trying to divert attention to me instead, or more specifically, my support of Trump. Personal attack, fairly standard strategy when people don't have a come-back, but that's alright. I'm done talking about Sharpton anyway, there's only so much you can say about him.
 

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I don't need to. I fully understand your point, your point just happens to be a silly thought experiment that is inapplicable to the United States federal government. You are correct in saying that the total number of voters, or the popular vote tally, does not change if you move voters from one state to the other. You are incorrect in saying that it wouldn't change the outcome - EC or no EC. The state legislatures are elected directly in individual states, the chief executive is not - they're elected by means of representative democracy. Removing the EC from the equation doesn't change that, the burden of choosing the president still lies on state legislatures, not the citizens. You'd have to rewrite significant portions of the constitution to change that, and there's no support for that, so we're discussing an imaginary hypothetical. You're focusing on a number that has no bearing on the final result, not because of the EC, but because of how the United States operate.

Still missing the entire thing and off topic from what the discussion was. One more try perhaps?
 

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Okay. Let's put it another way for your simple mind. If there are more people in the United States that would vote for a Democrat President, then there should be a Democrat President as the people have spoken. It doesn't matter where the people are located, as long as all people are heard. Do people in those two states not have the freedom to take the side they wish, just like the residents of any other state? Why does location matter? Take the residents of those two states and spread them out anywhere in the US you'd like. Close those two states down, and relocate everyone to red states. Does that change their votes? Lmao. C'mon. Stop playing idiot for arguments sake. Why would the votes for any other states not matter without the electoral? That is complete nonsense. Like I said, relocate all those people and the vote does not change. Period. Fact.
Talk about a simple mind. This was already discussed at great length, by people a lot smarter than you. They created the electoral college. Herd mentality is a thing...
 

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Talk about a simple mind. This was already discussed at great length, by people a lot smarter than you. They created the electoral college. Herd mentality is a thing...

I see things are still flying way, way, WAY over your head. I'm not going to hold your hand. My purpose/meaning is seriously NOT very difficult to understand.
 
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smf

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Talk about a simple mind. This was already discussed at great length, by people a lot smarter than you. They created the electoral college. Herd mentality is a thing...

The Electoral college was basically inherited from United Kingdom, where the elected representatives both serve the people and vote for the leader while the US split those roles. It solved some problems that are no longer relevant.

Anyone that supports it now is guilty of group think.
 
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His assets and equity are negligible according to the same tax returns I referenced. If not for the constant stream of dark money flowing from Deutche Bank to his pockets over the last couple decades, he'd probably be over a billion in the red.
No sir, and I'm not in the mood to discuss such mundane matters, my apologies.
 

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