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What is your opinion on coronavirus vaccines?

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Foxi4

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The simpler answer would be: When was the last time you heard of a vaccine having gone 'horribly wrong'?

To which the counter argument is: But this time it was rushed.

To which the counter argument is: What steps, though. (At which point you'd need in depth knowledge about vaccine development, so the average listener clinks out.)

Also, I have to state, that the OP basically says, 'I'm not an anti-vaccer, but I believe all their arguments without reflection', help me Obi-wan.
In 1955 the government approved a Polio vaccine in a rush in order to protect the children from the disastrous effects of the outbreak that was going on at the time. Thousands of batches were contaminated with the live virus on accident, infecting around 40,000 children with Polio, leaving 10 dead and a couple hundred paralysed. This event is remembered as the Cutter Incident, after the name of the company responsible, Cutter Labs. It is estimated that 10-30% of all vaccine batches were contaminated with the SV40 simian virus in the time period between 1955 and 1963 - that's a pretty big boo-boo if you ask me. That's not to say that people shouldn't get vaccinated, they absolutely should, but if we're dealing with a potentially deadly virus then we should maintain high safety standards instead of rushing to the goal post without even checking if we're not kicking the ball right past our own goalie by accident.
 

notimp

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Manufacturer was almost bankrupted:
The second part of the story describes the resulting product liability trial, in which the manufacturer of the vaccine, Cutter Laboratories, was found to be liable even though it was not negligent. Cutter followed all available guidelines in production of the vaccine and only released lots that had passed recommended safety tests. However, the vaccine, rather than preventing polio as it was supposed to do, actually caused polio instead. In the trial, the jury did not find Cutter to have been negligent in the manufacture of the vaccine. However, Cutter was found to have violated the implied warranty that its product, when used as directed, would be safe and effective for its intended purpose. The author makes a convincing argument that this case set a precedent for liability without negligence that ultimately almost destroyed the vaccine industry in the United States. Only the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, in which claims against manufacturers are first arbitrated by a panel of experts, has kept manufacturers in the game.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1570077/


Shouldnt happen this time around. :)

Depending on which approach 'wins' it would have little to do with using the actual virus in a disabled state. But at that point I'm out of my depth. :)


edit: Here is why it shouldnt happen this time around from the regulatory perspective:

Cutter incident led to changes in federal regulations for vaccine production
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/35600801/cutter-incident-led-to-changes-in/
(source not vetted)

see also: https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1njkt9 (point 9 and epilogue) Havent found anything better yet.
 
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spotanjo3

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I don't used Vaccine for flu either.. No flu vaccine for 12 years and no sick for 12 years also. Flu vaccine isn't safe. When I got flu vaccine and I got sick sometimes so I decided to stop 12 years ago and 12 years today, never got sick. I always wash my hands, and don't social in the stores. I always walk away from then and wash hands every time I touch things in any stores. I am talking about flu stuff that they touch in the stores. Stores, train, bus, and airports are full of germ. Hand wash with soap (without soap won't help!). I have seen many people don't wash or don't wash properly. They are GROSS people. That's why we got sick thanks to them. The partially is your fault too. Its your responsible to wash hands with soap. It's 100 percent effective and less getting sick.

I don't get sick nothing fo 12 years include bad cold and sore throat, nothing. That's your answer. Effective!!

For Coronavirus.. very dangerous and higher risk than flu. I haven't got Coronavirus since March and I travel during this year also. Wash the hand with soap and 70 percent and higher of alcohol are 100 percent effective.

Anyway.. This is something I will have to research about Coronavirus vaccine side effect first. If it does or doesn't then I will not take the vaccine at all.
 
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sarkwalvein

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I'll get it.....in about 5 years once more test are done and we see if there are any harmful effects.
This balance between emergency and caution kind of makes me sleepless.

In the one hand I/we need it as soon as possible, I do at least, I will myself avoid planes as long as the pandemic is not very well controlled worldwide... that means it's not possible for me to visit a big part of my family and I miss that; also if people act like me this kills tourism and I really miss travelling also. (damn it's just first world problems I am talking about)

In the other hand I believe it needs more testing, and that makes me want to wait longer before using a vaccine (and not just 'when it comes out')... lack of certainty sure leads to decision stress... I will sure not wait 5 years to hop over the pond.
 
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MMX

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In the other hand I believe it needs more testing, and that makes me want to wait longer before using a vaccine (and not just 'when it comes out')... lack of certainty sure leads to decision stress... I will sure not wait 5 years to hop over the pond.

what if the government forces you to get vaccinated asap?
You can't enter stores if you don't have the shot, you can't stay employed, no bank will open an account in the cashless future if you aren't vaccinated.

And of course, repeat this every 6-12 month because the virus is mutating.
 

sarkwalvein

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what if the government forces you to get vaccinated asap?
You can't enter stores if you don't have the shot, you can't stay employed, no bank will open an account in the cashless future if you aren't vaccinated.

And of course, repeat this every 6-12 month because the virus is mutating.
Then I will take the shot in sake of the common good, but I trust that my government will only do so if it considers it is thoroughly tested.
 
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MMX

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Then I will take the shot in sake of the common good, but I trust that my government will only do so if it considers it is thoroughly tested.

what I'm saying is that I believe this is mostly used to control people.
It's easy then for the government to put dissidents on the street without any income.

think of it as a similar system to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
this opens the door for a system like this
 
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osm70

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what I'm saying is that I believe this is mostly used to control people.
It's easy then for the government to put dissidents on the street without any income.

think of it as a similar system to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
this opens the door for a system like this
Did you really just compare Social Credit System with vaccines? I am sorry, but I don't see the connection.
 
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sarkwalvein

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what I'm saying is that I believe this is mostly used to control people.
It's easy then for the government to put dissidents on the street without any income.

think of it as a similar system to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
I see your point, but I don't see it like that...
Sounds like the plot for the first season of Furture Man

I see it more like give up some individual freedom for the good of the whole, in the same way you give up your "freedom to drive 300 MPH on common streets so that less people die in traffic accidents".

*Snip*
 
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UltraDolphinRevolution

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Have you seen the TV interview with Gates? He admitted that a large number people who took the vaccine had side effects but "some of them are not dramatic. It is just super painful". [quote from my own memory]
I was quite shocked.
If the the not so dramatic cases are already super painful, then what about the other cases?
 

MMX

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Have you seen the TV interview with Gates? He admitted that a large number people who took the vaccine had side effects but "some of them are not dramatic. It is just super painful". [quote from my own memory]
I was quite shocked.
If the the not so dramatic cases are already super painful, then what about the other cases?

seen this one?
http://open.who.int/2018-19/contributors/contributor Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation are the #1 private contributors to the WHO.

How can some people here be against lobbyism, yet quote sponsored studies by foundations like these. yeah I'm sure the government and companies want only the best for us. Just ask the western people on diabetes and how much sugar they pump into food. (sarcasm) or how about the endless wars while the public is clearly against it
 
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Foxi4

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Manufacturer was almost bankrupted:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1570077/


Shouldnt happen this time around. :)

Depending on which approach 'wins' it would have little to do with using the actual virus in a disabled state. But at that point I'm out of my depth. :)


edit: Here is why it shouldnt happen this time around from the regulatory perspective:

Cutter incident led to changes in federal regulations for vaccine production
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/35600801/cutter-incident-led-to-changes-in/
(source not vetted)

see also: https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1njkt9 (point 9 and epilogue) Havent found anything better yet.
Exactly, but a lot of those regulations are going the way of the dodo bird due to the rush, bypassing what would normally be a years long process. Not only that, the liability exemption effectively means that it doesn't matter if the product is good or not - you literally cannot sue the company. Those are both bad things that people should be aware of, I think being informed of recent developments in the race for a vaccine is important. If we're going to put that thing in our system, the least due diligence we can do is make sure it's safe to use, otherwise all this research and development was pointless.

EDIT: A quick reminder to all participants - genuine concern is entirely permissable if based on facts - conspiracy theories and nonsensical drivel will be removed from the thread. Please discuss facts rather than delve into hocus pocus please.
 
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notimp

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Exactly, but a lot of those regulations are going the way of the dodo bird due to the rush, bypassing what would normally be a years long process.
True, but afaik - in the western approach, not so much the testing (clinical trial) phases. (Approval might be fast tracked, but not the testing itself.)

Regulation is waved to enable all processes to move faster, money is pumped in to eliminate financial constraints, but the actual testing phases should remain under close/high level of scrutiny. Scientific community isnt taking this lightly. Vaccines are preproduced, with the notion that they could be scraped - if trials come in negative, to get to distribution faster at the next stage and so on.

State could wave/alter the approval (by national health bodies) stages (force testing to 'go faster' there, like in russia) which would lead to more risk (I see the highest potential for added risk there (but I might be wrong, I'm not a specialist in the field)).

But even if, it would mainly impact the 'effectiveness' state of vaccine testing, not safety, or dosage. This still is bad, because you are dealing with humans, that are likely to become very suspicious of a vaccine, if the first one 'didnt help as much as expected'. This should not affect 'side effect' testing as much. That said, phase 3 trials (1000 people and more) also are beneficial for the statistical assessment of those.
 
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Lucifer666

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how about I can choose? Choice is great right? Consent is great right?
if YOU want to get the vaccine, fine. You and your people are safe.
if someone else doesn't - then by that logic doesn't he get sick and die? then problem solved too.

This is a joke, right? If someone else doesn't, and they are infected, then anyone they come in close contact with is at risk. Not everyone can get a vaccine, e.g. immunocompromised people. Speaking theoretically here, if a vaccine did exist that had negligible risk (i.e. a small chance some side effects that will wear off in a couple of days) then it would be selfish for someone who can take it not to take it. No one lives in a bubble. Unless you straight up live in a DIY house in the middle of the woods or mountains or something, hundreds of KMs away from any sign of civilisation and feed yourself by hunting, you have play your part to help the community.

how about I can choose? Choice is great right? Consent is great right?
who pays the doctors? who pays for the vaccine? The Government? The Government has no money, it gets money from taxes.
When people tell me taxes are great because that's how you have Streets, but when it's about Healthcare it suddenly is not from taxes it's "FREE"

Obviously the funding comes from somewhere. It's free at the point of contact, and as a taxpayer the amount you pay has nothing to do with how much/little care you need. Which is great if you're chronically ill and/or have complex health conditions.

I pay a shit ton of tax, same as everyone else, but I'm thankful everyday that I have had the care from wonderful, highly experienced (in ALL demographics of people) doctors and nurses that I know for a fact are not incentivised by profit and push for unnecessary testing or medication just to stack bills. And, even better, everyone else is entitled to the same.

what if the government forces you to get vaccinated asap?
You can't enter stores if you don't have the shot, you can't stay employed, no bank will open an account in the cashless future if you aren't vaccinated.

I'm sorry but wtf are you talking about lmao
 
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eyeliner

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In "I am legend", they found the vaccine/cure for cancer and then all of a sudden, the world was a barren wasteland, filled with zombies and Will Smith.

This vaccine was rushed and I feel that the relentless pursuit for the top spot will make it so that someone will suffer badly with yet unknown side effects. I'd bet anal leakage or chlamydia.
 

FAST6191

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Some cute replies to this thread. Maybe I will come back later to have a giggle.

Show me a good one and if the thing is still otherwise raging (as opposed to manageable with contract tracing) around the world at the time (there are good plague vaccines, not much plague going around, there are good smallpox vaccines, not my smallpox going around, not much swine flu going around, not much bird flu, mers also a bit on the low side...) and I will have it.
If the list of symptoms going around is accurate I probably already had it (was not fun but was back to form in short order), though if immunity wanes in the short term as some seem to be speculating I guess it might actually be time to go see a doctor/their practice nurse for the first time since signing up there a few years back, and first time in general for many more.

Re: US distribution of things. While the system there is geared towards maximum money extraction it seems vaccines at least are reduced to small copay at worst. Even without that if insurance has a choice between a vaccine and several weeks on a ventilator in an ICU before you kick the bucket, making billing you hard and also without any more nice payments, anyway then yeah even if they were utterly without morals (and blind to public outrage -- if people are all about burning things down over a criminal actively fighting with police and going crazy for a nice bit of placebo mask use so as not to be killing grand papa then I would hope something could come up here, though I have been surprised by variation in reactions before) it would still be the lesser financial decision.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/adults/pay-for-vaccines.html

As far as it being made mandatory... while I will call you a fool if you don't, if your 13 year old kid rocks up to my medic office and basic due diligence (do you have HIV, do you eat eggs, do you eat wheat...) I will give them all they need and consider a day well spent, would never convict a medic for doing that (even if it means dipping a toe in the nullification waters) and so forth then going back to principles I do have to allow you to be a fool in this regard. At the same time I don't know if it still is illegal to not report infectious diseases (was back in the 60s) but it probably ought to be, enforced quarantine of you and your should you develop something would not offend said same principles, no funds for no shot medics, and no school for you either (though schooling is) all work for me, and your kids will not be friends with my kids (granted your kids would probably not make it to be old enough usefully play but that is a different matter).

Re: errors in creation of vaccines.
Always happy to have examples of failures in things to study (failure analysis is kind of my thing) but would those listed thus far likely happen in the modern world? While my books on science and tech from that era are still pretty sharp today then controls and the like do a lot better. Rushed on what is otherwise a fairly new virus family for widespread vaccines (it is noted that some of the ones listed above, SARS and MERS being two of the more fun ones with it being 2002 for the former, but research desire was not there after it petered out, so much for both the capitalistic and non profit research approaches I guess) would be a prime candidate for something fun to happen but that does not preclude steps being in place to mitigate that.
Or if you prefer we were probably all here a few years back when that male pill trial was cancelled and it was noted that the first pill for women would likely not have got through if trialled today. Granted we did then see the female viagra (Addyi/flibanserin) get pushed through despite serious serious side effects and dubious efficacy so who knows.
 
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