Government in Austria gets Cell Phone Movement Data without asking

[Alexander1970]

Deutsche Telekom, A1 Telekom, Vodafone, Orange and other mobile operators are ready to make their location data available to the EU Commission. The lobby group of the mobile phone service provider GSMA says that the spread of the corona virus should be tracked.

Representatives of the corporations as well as Telefonica, Telecom Italia, Telenor and Telia met with EU Industry Commissioner Thierry Breton on Monday. The EU Commission wants to use anonymized data. However, there is growing criticism that governments want to use cellular data to control quarantine compliance and exercise profiles.

https://orf.at/stories/3159376/

Conversations and SMS are not followed

After protests by the Social Democrats, which until recently had been self-governing and now opposed, the exception law was weakened in parliament. Contrary to the original government proposal, phone calls and SMS messages should not be tracked, only localization data. The measure was also limited to the duration of the coronavirus crisis.

I love this "decide over the Peoples Head" Thing.(Even if it was not implemented this Time).
And the "Lemmings" do every Year the same....vote for this "Government".
And like Austrian Mentality is - complain afterwards.

I wonder if they also will complain in this Case.

 

[notimp]

I wonder how this came to be... Genuinely so.

So law proposals usually are lobbied for/prewritten before acted on. Then when a crisis comes along, people get into this 'lets not let it go to waste' mentality and are testing how far they can take certain concepts, when the pretense is "saving lives" (as always).

What I dont get is, who on earth would be senile enough to write 'state of emergency' proposals that would drop democracy by the wayside and go with 'total control over the populous' in a heartbeat.

First draft. Finished in someones drawer. Let people fight their way back to free societal principals, while we control their movements, networks, private conversations...

I very much would like to know how the logic in that case goes. Because thats not one guy writing that - because he's bored, those are structural measures for 'state of emergency' situations, in someones book.

I've never come across a person that ever even argued for that - aside from fashists, yet come the right crisis... *puff* there they are.

I dont think that those are specific for austria - and going by the swiftness with which those proposals got a rewrite in those sections, people quickly anticipated public fallout from mass surveillance clauses.

So why are they still the default?

I want to get that logic. The 'state absolutely believes the public has had it - and has to be pushed into submission' to protect - what? Functioning of - what?

 

[Deleted User]

Oh dear.

What noun does bullshit go with, btw?

(As it stands currently, they do all the reporting and platforming of comments on the matter. No other medium in Austria does so.)

If you are stuck in the "I hate medium if medium ideologically isnt on my side of the fence" phase, I'm not talking to you.

Even reading this forum, by now you ought to have realized, that voices that can offer nothing but hate on the other side of the political devide, reminding everyone how poor they are doing - can offer nothing. Bring nothing to the table. That form of trying to win arguments is so - 'first five years after facebook started'.

Its the equivalent of defecating on the stage. Everyone shares it. You get all the attention. Then someone has to clean up your mess afterwards. With the exception, that social media offered a 'clean new stage' every three hours for the process to repeat. (Everscrolling newsfeed/Comments feed)

You might have never read TheStandard. If you post something conservative (or prolife=instant deletion) your post will most likely get removed. That is the reason I just do not like them :-)

 

[notimp]

You might have never read TheStandard. If you post something conservative (or prolife=instant deletion) your post will most likely get removed. That is the reason I just do not like them :-)

I thought about writing a sentence about 'people posting opinions beneath articles' as well. Useless. Doesnt surface much (sometimes people post interesting additional links), and articles are gone within half a day at most. Same issue - if you grow beyond a certain size, selfcorrecting breaks. Stuff has no staying power.

To then throw moderators and algos at the problem doesnt serve anything but keeping the platform advertiser friendly. Derstandard comments section (apart from people referencing additional information) to me is entirely useless. To them is just a way to generate repeat views. To their users its mostly emotional release.

Also I was banned from it once, maybe 10 years ago - for criticising Rauscher of all people, repeatedly, before realizing that he didnt read the comments section, and no one cared. I since have had two IP changes by my ISP, so without any effort could register again, but I havent bothered ever since. Participating there gives me nothing. I felt more agitated (there is exactly no space for nuance), thats it. That doesnt mean their reporting is all bad.

Also I've actually learned much from it regarding commentary as a journalistic category. I've learned f.e. that there is a certain kind of professional commentator that always writes along one ideological line.Never sways from it. And that those are the ones used as 'regulars' in a medium. They are basically mimicking what a good, accepted position in certain ideological cycles is, and they serve no other purpose. Just reading their name is enough to know what the content of the article will be. They seem to keep their jobs based on ideological consistency. Taught me not to rely on that sort of commentary for information.
--

edit: Thought about what I wrote (why people would ask for that) and never having heard anyone arguing that point. That wasnt correct. I've heard chinese state officials, argue for it, because "china is a much bigger country and much more inequal in certain parts, so its harder to employ other methods", and I've heard chinese people argue for it ("social score would make people more friendly and helpful"). Still doesnt explain to me why its anyones default in western style democracies.

 

[Deleted User]

I thought about writing a sentence about 'people posting opinions beneath articles' as well. Useless. Doesnt surface much (sometimes people post interesting additional links), and articles are gone within half a day at most. Same issue - if you grow beyond a certain size, selfcorrecting breaks. Stuff has no staying power.

To then throw moderators and algos at the problem doesnt serve anything but keeping the platform advertiser friendly. Derstandard comments section (apart from people referencing additional information) to me is entirely useless. To them is just a way to generate repeat views. To their users its mostly emotional release.

Also I was banned from it once, maybe 10 years ago - for criticising Rauscher of all people, repeatedly, before realizing that he didnt read the comments section, and no one cared. I since have had two IP changes by my ISP, so without any effort could register again, but I havent bothered ever since. Participating there gives me nothing. I felt more agitated (there is exactly no space for nuance), thats it. That doesnt mean their reporting is all bad.

Also I've actually learnt much from it regarding commentary as a journalistic category. I've learned f.e. that there is a certain kind of professional commentator that always writes along one ideological line.Never sways from it. And that those are the ones used as 'regulars' in a medium. They are basically mimicking what a good, accepted position in certain ideological cycles is, and they serve no other purpose. Just reading their name is enough to know what the content of the article will be. They seem to keep their jobs based on ideological consistency. Taught me not to rely on that sort of commentary for information.
--

edit: Thought about what I wrote (why people would ask for that) and never having heard anyone arguing that point. That wasnt correct. I've heard chinese state officials, argue for it, because "china is a much bigger country and much more inequal in certain parts, so its harder to employ other methods", and I've heard chinese people argue for it ("social score would make people more friendly and helpful"). Still doesnt explain to me why its anyones default in western style democracies.

nice post

 

[notimp]

Rhetorics (not actions) escalated slightly:
https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000116267034/opposition-geschlossen-gegen-big-data (german)

 

[Alexander1970]

Rhetorics (not actions) escalated slightly:
https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000116267034/opposition-geschlossen-gegen-big-data (german)

Thank you.

This Topic is loooooong not over.......
As you know for sure,if they have no "official" Chance to get what they want.......

That Moment,when A1 starts this "Case",it was like an "Rolling Stone".....
It has started and it will never end now.

Maybe a "Justification" --> Remember the Corona Virus.....and yes,you can call me crazy and insane and mentally disturbed.....
I said it long before this Madess has begun...this Virus is NO Coincidence....

 

[notimp]

Something funny.

https://www.diepresse.com/5792205/christian-lindner-die-situation-ist-unertraglich

https://www.derstandard.at/story/20...tenschuetzer-warnt-vor-zugriff-auf-handydaten
(Its good to see Kelber pitching in as expected of him, but the entire statement feels somehow lacking... (Subjective assessment.))

(Both german. sorry. )

Another one:
https://www.derstandard.at/story/20...uerger-ueberwachen-und-wie-oesterreich-es-tun


All Kinds of people suddenly employ magical thinking..
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik...uerchtet-um-zusammenhalt-der-eu-16700724.html

Strange times...

 

[Alexander1970]

In retrospect, it can be assumed that the Chinese authorities were certain very early on about the high transmission rate of the corona virus, but did not immediately share the information about it with other countries. This conclusion can be drawn from the drastic measures already taken at the end of January.

Yes I remember lively around last Weeks in January how the Medias here in Austria reported about that...
The Rapporteurs and Moderators of the News Programs smiled (laughed at) what the little Chinese were pounding out of the Earth again......typical Austrian Mentality...

And yes,van der Leyen is absolut correct - this will affect the EU.....in all Aspects...

Some little Examples:

- Business hours - Who needs now 24h Shopping Time and also on Sunday ???
- Border Controls - Yes indeed.
They should be reactivated and maintained immediately. At least we can get certain "non-Austria problems" under control again. And fill out a visa, oh my god that's soooo difficult these days ....

 

[notimp]

They tried, oh they tried..


Thats the initial statement:
https://www.derstandard.at/story/20...otka-stopp-corona-app-soll-verpflichtend-sein (german)

Thats the rebuttle:
https://www.derstandard.at/jetzt/li...esuchsregeln-fuer-haushalte-sorgt-fuer-aerger (german)

 

[Alexander1970]

Yes,yes.....

But they want to do this because they have now incredible Panic from the Easter Weekend/Holidays....
And if I am allowed please,in my personal Opinion yes it is entitled.

The People are so irresponsible and partly in spite of it,to follow now the Gouverment´s "Recommendations"...
I can assure you,we have the next (Virus) Wave (in Austria) after the next Week.......

 

[Alexander1970]

And for the "Easter Enactment":

For the FPÖ, club boss Herbert Kickl said on Saturday that the ban was "a vote of no confidence against the population" and was like a "call for pissing". Abuse was thus opened. "If anyone claims that they saw five people go into a house or apartment, the police are at the door," fears the liberal club chairman, "you could also call it a decree in the spirit of the block attendant mentality." A call for the police, "and the basic right to respect for private and family life is already undone."

https://orf.at/stories/3160688/

 

[notimp]

Actually...

App protocoled contacts/movements are part of the mitigation strategy. (Nothing to do with easter sunday in particular).

Here, watch this:
https://www.zdf.de/politik/maybrit-illner/maybrit-illner-corona-spezial-vom-29-maerz-2020-100.html (german)

edit: Also this if you want to:
https://daserste.ndr.de/annewill/ar...geht-es-weiter-in-Deutschland,erste11512.html (german)


edit2: via fefe - fun with fire, in the UK.. https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/4/21207927/5g-towers-burning-uk-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory-link (this one is in english). Actions not recommended..
(5G or not - makes no difference (correlation, not even correlation.. is not causation))

 

[notimp]

Bwahaha:

https://www.diepresse.com/5796216/verfassungsjurist-mayer-zerpfluckt-covid-19-gesetz (german)

(Austrias Covid 19 law forcing people within the medical care sector to work without the option of being temporarily released, or being able to work from home, even when showing preexisting conditions, is in clear violation of the countries constitution.

(We have another 'Lichtgstalt' (being of light, someone that cant do any wrong, .. ) as the head of the ruling political party).

("Einmal mit Profis arbeiten." (roughtly translates into a sarcastic "working with profesionals..." ))

 

[Alexander1970]

Constitutions and Resolutions especially of the last 3 Weeks are all unconstitutional .....
Under Time Pressure without the necessary Experts and the Opinions of the People,
"Things" were simply "decided" because according to the Austrian Government Mentality "one can improve every bit ... ".

 

[notimp]

In that case - we have constitutional courts and someone has to sue. (Still, separation of power.)

Takes time, which also is part of the point.

 

[smf]

What I dont get is, who on earth would be senile enough to write 'state of emergency' proposals that would drop democracy by the wayside and go with 'total control over the populous' in a heartbeat.

Elected officials who have to act fast to save people from dying.

We can argue over the niceties of whether you're upset that someone could potentially have seen where you went, after the fact.

Democracy doesn't really work for emergencies, organizing a vote takes a long time & would have to be done electronically (which some people would complain about and say the result was rigged) and people are generally too dumb to make good decisions anyway.

Covid 19 is going to have a lot of consequences. The death of cash is likely to happen much sooner, there can be much less resistance to people working from home (unless they ruin the chance). Hopefully there will be more empathy towards vulnerable people that need assistance. Rapid change will break some stuff though, it always does.

 

[notimp]

Elected officials who have to act fast to save people from dying.

Do something, quickly!

Give out permanent, searchable records of peoples movement patterns for a week/month/two months?

Ehm, why did we string up Assange again? Because he didn't redact names in 'not for general purpose' protocols?

One such database, has movement records, that can be deanonymized, by looking up - where datapoint was at 5am in the morning, for lets say 3 days in a row.

And then you have this for your entire population. And even my first instinct would be to copy that stuff, in case someone later says it has to be deleted, ...

I know its hard to recognize for people after the fact - but people died to attain personal freedoms.

And you are saving no one - by putting movement histories on record.

(Infection path is not solely determined by getting close to someone who has it. In fact, getting close to someone who has it - might even be a weak indicator.
( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...photo-brazilian-aide-bolsonaro-contact-latest )

Knowing that you got close to someone who had it, doesnt change behavior.

So now you want your police to call up people telling them not to leave home, because they got close to someone who had it. With no legal action taking place - without a warrant...

And thats me backpaddling already - because I grant you even thinking about this as a possibility for a potential action - which in reality, I dont. I cant. I wouldnt.)

Let me put this clearly. No sane individual would even want to make this a reality - even if lives are at stake, and someone does the 'we have to act quickly' spiel on them.

The implications of what you are proposing are so far reaching (from blackmailing political officials to journalists, to planning abductions (ok, wild fantasy, but really) that the opportunities in there are endless - from sketching out 'real' social graphs (ones on facebook are limited, because more 'wish driven') to taking over a country - it just depends on your imagination and means. And by means I mean - do you have 'a friend' thats into visualizing excel spreadsheets - on google maps or open streetmap?

No one should give that up as a first instinct. People in power, or people drafting law proposals arent that dumb.


And there in lies the problem. I can not, for the life in me believe that someone in such a position is that dumb. And if I have to rule out dumbness, I have to supplement with maliciousness to get intent. The 'lets try - we might get it' kind.

And if I do - I have a problem, because what the heck would you try that for - so what are potential fantasies/emergency plans of lets say any political advocate/lobbyist really - that might want to have this put into a legal text. "Destroy democracy for free" card - in exchange for what? Power? For how long? As long as people dont realize democracy is over? Or do you have contingency plans (I mean you could try to oppress them..)?

 

[smf]

Ehm, why did we string up Assange again? Because he didn't redact names in 'not for general purpose' protocols?

I didn't string up Assange. He upset the wrong people and they found an excuse.

If he hadn't been a complete self serving idiot then he could have easily argued his mitigating circumstances, like governments will be able to do.

You know, the kind of thing that says it's ok to break the speed limit or drive while disqualified if you are rushing someone to hospital. Some times saving lives trumps laws.

I am sure there are well paid barristers who will argue this out in court, I don't see how being outraged on a forum will make a difference. Personally if it even gives the chance of saving a single person then I'd be happy for them to grab whatever data they want.

People should be at home anyway.

 

[notimp]

Assange was a freebie, I threw him in there because he popped into my mind while writing it. The comparison isnt obvious.

I get the 'for as long as it would work' argument - as part of 'everything you could do', on the story about the austrian government just violating peoples constitutional rights (making 'essential personal' bare more) arguably its exactly that.

I dont buy it int he case of accessing full takes on movement profiles though because of two reasons. First one is, that 'its just for a little bit' is not a working excuse. You could do it for three days (without clustering the data to make reidentification possible) - and damage the political system in a country beyond repair.

This one is not about 'how long you do it' (just untill the courts catch up), but how deep you can look for stuff, heck give me three days of data and three years to comb through it, and I'll still be able to find stuff to ruin families, damage relationships, highlight an get into, or expose networks, blackmail journalists, sabotage lawyer client confidentiality, and post all people that visited an AIDS clinic, just in my lunchbreak. If you give me material thats more extensive, my picture just gets clearer.
Also - if you stop after lets say three days - I might not care, thats enough data (given sufficiently high movement resolution), to analyze for decades. So it gets worse over time, even if you stop.

The issue itself also doesnt get less deep. So if you are talking about measures similar to this, and you are the german government, you also pull sociologists into the boat to inform you just how big the fallout is. But even if you are just a law student, that got tasked with drafting an emergency law - you should be highly sensitive to stuff that would compromise client confidentiality of all your colleagues and peers in an instant. So who are you. Who writes this nonsese in a heartbeat, and then is surprised, that its snuffed in the first few draft corrections.

Not to mention historical perspectives of you selling out the basis of democracy being able to function in a heartbeat. Because if you've ever seen a university from the inside, much less have studied politics - you know about the sensitivity of actions violating privacy laws like that.

So things dont add up here.

Concerns for 'anonymous individual lives' seldomely trump people covering their own asses in the law profession. Something here is just odd, and I dont know why so...

Second problem I have is that I know Sobotkas actions in that context. He has been a freaking Rottweiler pushing for 'security' (as in anti privacy) legislation for years. He was the very person, that taught me (through interviews I've watched), the actual meaning of 'you cant take those toys away from our policeforce - they like them too much' argumentative fallacy. That guy is a loyal party soldier. And a public liability in that position. So who the eff still wants him in that position? You cant overlook that stuff. Unqualified idiot - is written all over those guys history in those matters.

Now granted I don't know if he, or his backoffice was even close to responsible for drafting those passages of the emergency law, no one does, but to see THAT guy trying to force tracking onto people using an emergency law - kind of only hightens my worries - that someone is treating this as 'dont let a crisis go to waste - and lets push for all of if, we'll get at least some of it granted in the end'.

And if you have that type of person in charge of some of your institutions actions - then good night Austria.

So what - in that guys mind is the outcome that would make you ask for such a thing. Because altruistic is the last adjective I'd use to describe the mindset anywhere in the ministry of the interior and the very last thing that would drive motivation on that guy. That guy has a history.

So dont tell me it was the millennial intern, that cared more about saving lives, than the looks of all this, in an administration that has put message control to new heights in this country, that did so out of an inherent care for humanity, while not thinking about saving his ass, or the ones of his lawyer mentors, because none of this makes sense.

So what does..