Hacking Wii U awful 4:3 aspect ratio support for CRT

[MikaDubbz]

Retro consoles (including VC versions) rarely look remotely decent on anything else. The Wii can output native 240p on CRTs, so it's almost perfect. The Wii U expects a HDTV, so it uses nearest-neighbor upscaling for perfect 4×4 squares at 960p, which then requires small black bars to make a full 1080p image. I don't know how they sorted the 224 to 240-line issue, though. The NES/SNES Mini has a scanline emulation mode to mimic a CRT.

I think pixel perfect modes look just fine on modern TVs. Classic games don't look better on CRTs, they just hide their flaws better because the screens were blurrier. That isn't better in my book, that's just tricking your brain to think they had a better quality than they ever really did.

 

[Shady Guy Jose]

I think pixel perfect modes look just fine on modern TVs. Classic games don't look better on CRTs, they just hide their flaws better because the screens were blurrier. That isn't better in my book, that's just tricking your brain to think they had a better quality than they ever really did.

That varies from game to game. From my anecdotal experience, NES games look better in pixel perfect modes, since the developers didn't/couldn't take the actual TV output into account while developing these games, so they just developed for a 256×224 picture. However, slightly more recent consoles such as the SNES, PS1 or N64 actively worked with the predicted output to create their images. For example, Donkey Kong Country on the SNES was developed with an anamorphic (stretched) 4:3 aspect ratio in mind, despite having the same 8:7 internal resolution, and they fully took into account that the picture would have scanlines, so it renders expecting an illusion of continuity in those black lines. Playing it in pixel-perfect mode doubles/triples every line, displaying a blocky image where your brain would perhaps automatically fill in a diagonal line or rounded picture, as well as forcing the "correct" aspect ratio that developers actively worked around (like playing an anamorphic widescreen DVD in 4:3 just because "it's still 640×480", assuming you live in an NTSC region). While the N64 and the PS1 actually render in 4:3 (320×240), they still expect scanlines, and the N64's anti-aliasing is completely broken if you force line-doubling. And the continuity illusion I mentioned is even more important in 3D rendering.

TL; DR: It's different on a case-by-case scenario. As a rule of thumb, NES looks just fine in pixel-perfect mode/nearest-neighbor scaling. Your mileage may vary with SNES games. Mega Drive/Genesis, Saturn, N64 and PS1 definitely look a lot better on a CRT or with a proper filter ("Sharp Bilinear" with a 640×480 — "Original" — window in Adrenaline for PSVita is a good example)

 

[MikaDubbz]

That varies from game to game. From my anecdotal experience, NES games look better in pixel perfect modes, since the developers didn't/couldn't take the actual TV output into account while developing these games, so they just developed for a 256×224 picture. However, slightly more recent consoles such as the SNES, PS1 or N64 actively worked with the predicted output to create their images. For example, Donkey Kong Country on the SNES was developed with an anamorphic (stretched) 4:3 aspect ratio in mind, despite having the same 8:7 internal resolution, and they fully took into account that the picture would have scanlines, so it renders expecting an illusion of continuity in those black lines. Playing it in pixel-perfect mode doubles/triples every line, displaying a blocky image where your brain would perhaps automatically fill in a diagonal line or rounded picture, as well as forcing the "correct" aspect ratio that developers actively worked around (like playing an anamorphic widescreen DVD in 4:3 just because "it's still 640×480", assuming you live in an NTSC region). While the N64 and the PS1 actually render in 4:3 (320×240), they still expect scanlines, and the N64's anti-aliasing is completely broken if you force line-doubling. And the continuity illusion I mentioned is even more important in 3D rendering.

TL; DR: It's different on a case-by-case scenario. As a rule of thumb, NES looks just fine in pixel-perfect mode/nearest-neighbor scaling. Your mileage may vary with SNES games. Mega Drive/Genesis, Saturn, N64 and PS1 definitely look a lot better on a CRT or with a proper filter ("Sharp Bilinear" with a 640×480 — "Original" — window in Adrenaline for PSVita is a good example)

At the end of the day, all it comes down to is that I think people that can't play a classic game on an HDTV are just obsessive nuts. The games play just fine, get over whatever OCD issues you have, yeah they may not look quite the same, but they are the same game and they do still look just fine at the end of the day. But hey I can't speak for everyone, we've all got our weird ticks. You do you I guess, but I'm still gonna look at such people like they're a bit crazy all the same.

 

[Shady Guy Jose]

At the end of the day, all it comes down to is that I think people that can't play a classic game on an HDTV are just obsessive nuts. The games play just fine, get over whatever OCD issues you have, yeah they may not look quite the same, but they are the same game and they do still look just fine at the end of the day. But hey I can't speak for everyone, we've all got our weird ticks. You do you I guess, but I'm still gonna look at such people like they're a bit crazy all the same.

Of course they're playable just fine. Hell, if your TV still has composite/S-Video/SCART inputs, even plugging an old console into those is still feasible, and the games will play just fine. However, the difference in picture quality is very noticeable, and more so the bigger the TV gets. While it's obviously nothing that makes the games unplayable, some games look really bad on modern TVs, especially at larger sizes, so I don't think people should be called crazy or OCD just because they prefer the original, objectively better look. They are crazy if they refuse to play the games just because they can't get that absolutely perfect picture, though

 

[SG854]

At the end of the day, all it comes down to is that I think people that can't play a classic game on an HDTV are just obsessive nuts. The games play just fine, get over whatever OCD issues you have, yeah they may not look quite the same, but they are the same game and they do still look just fine at the end of the day. But hey I can't speak for everyone, we've all got our weird ticks. You do you I guess, but I'm still gonna look at such people like they're a bit crazy all the same.

I spend thousands of dollars to get the absolute best picture for my children's game.

 

[SG854]

You are obsessive when you buy original consoles instead of using emulators because you have to have original speeds.
You are obsessive when you spend more then $10 dollars on a CRT.
You are obsessive when you use HIgan emulator over SNES9x.
You are obsessive when you buy RGB cables instead of using composite.
You are obsessive when RGB Master Class My Life in Gaming is your gods of knowledge and information.

These are children games for christ sake people. Its like spending over $4,000 dollars for an OLED display so that Barney, Teletubbies, and Peppa Pig looks its best in high quality HD.

 

[simbin]

You are obsessive when you buy original consoles instead of using emulators because you have to have original speeds.
You are obsessive when you spend more then $10 dollars on a CRT.
You are obsessive when you use HIgan emulator over SNES9x.
You are obsessive when you buy RGB cables instead of using composite.
You are obsessive when RGB Master Class My Life in Gaming is your gods of knowledge and information.

These are children games for christ sake people. Its like spending over $4,000 dollars for an OLED display so that Barney, Teletubbies, and Peppa Pig looks its best in high quality HD.

Your mom pays for it all so I don't worry about it.

 

[SG854]

Your mom pays for it all so I don't worry about it.

I glad you don't worry about my family stuff. It'll be weird since you are not part of my family.

 

[Vague Rant]

Imagine getting this worked up about how other people choose to play video games.

 

[Newwiiuuser]

There are people on site called gba temp asking what is CRT?

And hipster? I dont think so. We game for fun and its hard to have fun on 1080p or higher when the game have 240i resoution. Also see about deinterlacing and lags and artefacts.

CRT is the superior technology for these games and it is their natural environment. Pictures is sharp and gameplay is so smooth. Also CRTs have zero input lag. It is heaven for a human being who enjoys retro games.

Also composite really sucks. No need to even discuss about it.

There is no obsession in it. It is a hobby. No one can tell how you can do it. The important part is how you enjoy. Saying so is a hypocrisy. If i say: Why people buying 2k monitors? Why the better cpu and gpu? Why in game better graphic settings. Just play on 30 fps and on low level graphics. If you dont do it you are obsessed.

 

[SG854]

Imagine getting this worked up about how other people choose to play video games.

Is that it? Is that all you're going say? Wow that was a vague rant.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

There are people on site called gba temp asking what is CRT?

And hipster? I dont think so. We game for fun and its hard to have fun on 1080p or higher when the game have 240i resoution. Also see about deinterlacing and lags and artefacts.

CRT is the superior technology for these games and it is their natural environment. Pictures is sharp and gameplay is so smooth. Also CRTs have zero input lag. It is heaven for a human being who enjoys retro games.

Also composite really sucks. No need to even discuss about it.

There is no obsession in it. It is a hobby. No one can tell how you can do it. The important part is how you enjoy. Saying so is a hypocrisy. If i say: Why people buying 2k monitors? Why the better cpu and gpu? Why in game better graphic settings. Just play on 30 fps and on low level graphics. If you dont do it you are obsessed.

I'm just joking bro. I game on CRT too Bro.

 

[liveswired]

People like to argue N64 games on the VC have input lag but that's just how janky N64 games are.

Nintendo never bothered adjusting the analogue deadzones - that's the problem. Playing the same games on real hardware is an absolute breeze regardless of framerate improvements on VC.

 

[Ryeno]

I think pixel perfect modes look just fine on modern TVs. Classic games don't look better on CRTs, they just hide their flaws better because the screens were blurrier. That isn't better in my book, that's just tricking your brain to think they had a better quality than they ever really did.

100% incorrect.
1. Retro games look best on the sharpest, higher TVL/resolution, CRTs.
2. 2D Sprite games were designed for the 240p resolution so they look best at 240p. Upscaled to 480p makes the spires look clunky.
3. CRTs have a black level (contrast) that only OLED can beat. So games & movies look much nicer on CRTs compared to standard LCDs.
If you're playing 240p content (5th gen earlier) than CRT is the way to go. Even 480i (6th gen) looks better on a CRT.

 

[MikaDubbz]

100% incorrect.
1. Retro games look best on the sharpest, higher TVL/resolution, CRTs.
2. 2D Sprite games were designed for the 240p resolution so they look best at 240p. Upscaled to 480p makes the spires look clunky.
3. CRTs have a black level (contrast) that only OLED can beat. So games & movies look much nicer on CRTs compared to standard LCDs.
If you're playing 240p content (5th gen earlier) than CRT is the way to go. Even 480i (6th gen) looks better on a CRT.

You understand I started that post with "I think" right? As in, that was my opinion. It can't be "100% incorrect," because it is a personal opinion. I still feel that way, cool if you disagree, but please don't tell me my subjective opinion is 100% wrong when it simply can't be. I absolutely still believe pixel perfect modes look just fine on modern TVs, and you telling me that's wrong does not negate that.

 

[N7Kopper]

100% incorrect.
1. Retro games look best on the sharpest, higher TVL/resolution, CRTs.
2. 2D Sprite games were designed for the 240p resolution so they look best at 240p. Upscaled to 480p makes the spires look clunky.
3. CRTs have a black level (contrast) that only OLED can beat. So games & movies look much nicer on CRTs compared to standard LCDs.
If you're playing 240p content (5th gen earlier) than CRT is the way to go. Even 480i (6th gen) looks better on a CRT.

I did a direct comparison and agree with MikaDubbz. Low quality displays hiding flaws in even RGB or Y/Pb/Pr outputs doesn't make them better. It's the placebo effect, pure and simple. It's hard to ignore your expectations, but if you compare two displays of similar size and push out your preconceptions, you'll see it.

Bigger displays will always look less crisp with lower resolution content. Spring for a smaller HDTV, it'll clobber your CRT black and blue, even with retro stuff.

Input lag is the only advantage those sets have, and even that is negligible unless your scaler is complete crap.

TO ACTUALLY ANSWER OP:
If you want CRT gaming (you do you, but don't try and convince me) then find a WAD collection for the Wii Virtual Console or use unofficial emulators. Don't expect a HD system to be optimised for 240p.

 

[Ryeno]

I did a direct comparison and agree with MikaDubbz. Low quality displays hiding flaws in even RGB or Y/Pb/Pr outputs doesn't make them better. It's the placebo effect, pure and simple. It's hard to ignore your expectations, but if you compare two displays of similar size and push out your preconceptions, you'll see it.

Bigger displays will always look less crisp with lower resolution content. Spring for a smaller HDTV, it'll clobber your CRT black and blue, even with retro stuff.

Input lag is the only advantage those sets have, and even that is negligible unless your scaler is complete crap.

TO ACTUALLY ANSWER OP:
If you want CRT gaming (you do you, but don't try and convince me) then find a WAD collection for the Wii Virtual Console or use unofficial emulators. Don't expect a HD system to be optimised for 240p.

This is disinformation.

I've RGB modded consumer CRTs and they benefit greatly over composite. Any CRT from the 90s, 00s or even late 80s will display 240p content better than an LCD.

Only OLED has better contrast ratio than a CRT.

There is a reason PVM prices are exploding and people are willing to pay 1k+ for a high-end 20" crt from 20 years.