The Illegal Immigration Non-Crisis in the USA

[Xzi]

Republicans are *less consistently conservative*, Democrats are *more consistently liberal*, it's right there.

My point being that more liberal =/= more leftist from a world and historical perspective. Liberals are still capitalists and tend to glance over the faults inherent in a capitalist system, just as conservatives do.

As for Trump, he's not a racist.

This is no longer up for debate after his recent remarks on Twitter. "Go back to your country" is the same line that's been used by racists and segregationists for over a century now.

Having a fondness for strong leadership, aka what you call "authoritarianism" is neither left nor right-wing, history shows that both left and right-wing authoritarianism is a possibility.

Dictators who starve their citizens and deprive them of basic human rights are not strong leaders, they're selfish and weak. It's no wonder Trump sees so much of himself in them.

As for his political alignment, the Democrats have been advocating the construction of a physical barrier at the border for as long as I remember, this includes Barack Obama, Hilary Clinton and Chuck Shumer who all supported the Secure Fence Act of 2006.

Indeed, and they've been willing to provide funding for such a venture from the beginning, but Trump wouldn't accept anything less than a wasteful and overly-expensive wall. Probably just so he can put his name on it in large gold letters to temporarily satisfy his NPD.

I won't even get into Hilary's statements regarding "super predators" or other tasty treats from recent history.

Why do you think so many Democrats refused to vote for her in 2016? Same thing is going to happen to Biden if he gets the nomination. Just reinforces my point that Democrats are sick of "Republican lite" candidates.

He's nowhere near matching Deporter in Chief, Trump's numbers are lagging behind his predecessor since, miraculously, Democrat mayors refuse to cooperate with him even in the cases of immigrants who received their final notices.

It also helps keep deportation numbers low when he's holding immigrants in cages well past point when the law demands they be released. Inefficiency and incompetency, the defining traits of the Trump administration.

Regarding healthcare, the last thing you want is an NHS-style entity. It's colossaly wasteful and its supposed efficiency is grossly overestimated.

Easy to say from the comfort of a country where citizens don't risk lifelong bankruptcy over a single illness or necessary surgery.

On a less serious note, you are giving Poland a lot of undue credit. I can assure you that it's undeserved.

Maybe so, but it's just one of several first-world countries that are leaving the US in the dust when it comes to nearly any standard of living metric.

 

[Foxi4]

My point being that more liberal =/= more leftist from a world and historical perspective. Liberals are still capitalists and tend to glance over the faults inherent in a capitalist system, just as conservatives do.

This is no longer up for debate after his recent remarks on Twitter. "Go back to your country" is the same line that's been used by racists and segregationists for over a century now.

Dictators who starve their citizens and deprive them of basic human rights are not strong leaders, they're selfish and weak. It's no wonder Trump sees so much of himself in them.

Indeed, and they've been willing to provide funding for such a venture from the beginning, but Trump wouldn't accept anything less than a wasteful and overly-expensive wall. Probably just so he can put his name on it in large gold letters to temporarily satisfy his NPD.

Why do you think so many Democrats refused to vote for her in 2016? Same thing is going to happen to Biden if he gets the nomination. Just reinforces my point that Democrats are sick of "Republican lite" candidates.

It also helps keep deportation numbers low when he's holding immigrants in cages well past point when the law demands they be released. Inefficiency and incompetency, the defining traits of the Trump administration.

Easy to say from the comfort of a country where citizens don't risk lifelong bankruptcy over a single illness or necessary surgery.

Maybe so, but it's just one of several first-world countries that are leaving the US in the dust when it comes to nearly any standard of living metric.

The reason why I enjoy chatting with you about these things is that we can both look at the same set of facts and draw two completely different conclusions from them. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on all accounts, particularly regarding the NHS. I've lived in the UK for many years now, I'm a legal immigrant, I own a property and pay my taxes, but the one thing I haven't done and don't intend to ever do is partake in the NHS. All I need to make up my mind is seeing how my better half is being treated, complete with consistent misdiagnosis, surgeries delayed ad infinitum and 4-hour long wait times at the A&E, at minimum. Thankfully I'm healthy and the only attention I need is the occasional check-up at the dentist, but when it's time for a visit, I travel all the way back to Poland and do it privately. Sadly, I don't get to choose whether I pay for the NHS circus or not, which is a bit of a shame since it's a service imposed upon me that I will never use. With some luck it will go bankrupt within my lifetime so that it can be replaced with a more preferable free market alternative, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Skelletonike]

Sadly centrists are now seen and treated the same as being extreme right.
In my country for example, there are two parties which are extremely similar, PS and PSD, one leans more to the left and the other more to the right, at their core however, they are extremely similar. Or were supposed to. 4 years ago PSD legally won the ellection, however PS was upset with that and did something which wasn't 100% correct, it aligned itself with all the strong left parties, which are all extreme left.

Just to get a win, they went against their principles and allied themselves with the extreme left and bigot every suggestion the PSD and any of the more right wing parties suggest. It was and is total BS. People are too obsessed with being right or left these days.


Regarding illegal migrants, for the most part they end up being parasites. Portugal has a lot of poor people in the streets, but even so we had to give houses and money to those migrants, when our own homeless remain in the streets. All of this is because it looks nice in the picture. They don't give a damn.

 

[Xzi]

Sadly, I don't get to choose whether I pay for the NHS circus or not, which is a bit of a shame since it's a service imposed upon me that I will never use.

That's not really something you can guarantee, though. People never choose to have sudden medical emergencies.

One of the main grievances I have with conservatives here in the US is that they complain constantly about taxation, yet they'll gladly take their fill of all the services those taxes help pay for. Especially Social Security and Medicare, but also of course including public parks and highways.

 

[Foxi4]

That's not really something you can guarantee, though. People never choose to have sudden medical emergencies.

One of the main grievances I have with conservatives here in the US is that they complain constantly about taxation, yet they'll gladly take their fill of all the services those taxes help pay for. Especially Social Security and Medicare, but also of course including public parks and highways.

I can guarantee you that if my head is hanging off my neck on a sliver of skin, I will go to the nearest vet instead of the local hospital because I'll have better chances for timely recovery. Remember, taxation is theft, keep on keeping on, buddy!

 

[Taleweaver]

Note: I'm somewhat necrobumping a post of mine from something I said on page 8, and which was halfway off-topic to begin with (meaning: ignore this post if you don't care). Sorry for the confusion, but I grossly underestimated things. It's not fun to admit being wrong, but it has to be said: the truth is a whole lot closer to what @supersonicwaffle claimed than my own post.

About a week ago, I said...

But meh... Since you seem to care : I pray a yearly sum to a 'mutualiteit'... I think it's best translated as a state funded insurance (yes... Like Obamacare. He didn't invent the wheel). It's about 50 euro. On top of that there is a monthly tax derived monthly from everyone who works in Belgium. About 50 euro, roughly estimated. So per year, I guesstimate I pay around 650 euros.

Since it was met with criticism (by @supersonicwaffle ), I decided to check with our HR department. Monthly contributions to the medical sector in Belgium - or at least for me (which is still about the median for a Belgian employee) - are around 13% of gross monthly income.
...and that's way above 50 euro's indeed. It's actually around 390-400 euro per month. So my yearly contribution to the sector is around 4850 euro's. Still cheaper than the US, but the margin is far less than I'd had hoped.

/offtopic

 

[supersonicwaffle]

Note: I'm somewhat necrobumping a post of mine from something I said on page 8, and which was halfway off-topic to begin with (meaning: ignore this post if you don't care). Sorry for the confusion, but I grossly underestimated things. It's not fun to admit being wrong, but it has to be said: the truth is a whole lot closer to what @supersonicwaffle claimed than my own post.

About a week ago, I said...

Since it was met with criticism (by @supersonicwaffle ), I decided to check with our HR department. Monthly contributions to the medical sector in Belgium - or at least for me (which is still about the median for a Belgian employee) - are around 13% of gross monthly income.
...and that's way above 50 euro's indeed. It's actually around 390-400 euro per month. So my yearly contribution to the sector is around 4850 euro's. Still cheaper than the US, but the margin is far less than I'd had hoped.

/offtopic

Thank you for getting back to us with this information, really appreciate it.
Basically my assumption that 1/3 of social securitiy expenses being for health care was conservative is pretty much spot on. I'd be interested in more details regarding the health care system in Belgium and will research when I find some time.

 

[SG854]

Note: I'm somewhat necrobumping a post of mine from something I said on page 8, and which was halfway off-topic to begin with (meaning: ignore this post if you don't care). Sorry for the confusion, but I grossly underestimated things. It's not fun to admit being wrong, but it has to be said: the truth is a whole lot closer to what @supersonicwaffle claimed than my own post.

About a week ago, I said...

Since it was met with criticism (by @supersonicwaffle ), I decided to check with our HR department. Monthly contributions to the medical sector in Belgium - or at least for me (which is still about the median for a Belgian employee) - are around 13% of gross monthly income.
...and that's way above 50 euro's indeed. It's actually around 390-400 euro per month. So my yearly contribution to the sector is around 4850 euro's. Still cheaper than the US, but the margin is far less than I'd had hoped.

/offtopic

Thank you for getting back to us with this information, really appreciate it.
Basically my assumption that 1/3 of social securitiy expenses being for health care was conservative is pretty much spot on. I'd be interested in more details regarding the health care system in Belgium and will research when I find some time.

Wow, I completely forgot the whole Health Care thing was in this thread. I was a lot calmer and less attacky then till a certain person ticked me off. And I read others saying the same thing about him in other threads so I know I’m not the only one that thought the same.



You know when it comes to Obama Care Rep. Jim Jordan makes a good point, peoples premiums went way up and their Health Care choices reduced. Deductibles didn’t decline, people didn’t get to keep their doctor if they liked them, they didn’t get to keep the plan they liked.

They said Co-ops were these wonderful things, 23 were created but most, 19, went bankrupt and only 4 are left now. A failed thing of Obama Care.

https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/888844/579

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...-op-disaster-an-unfunny-comedy-of-errors/amp/



Jonathan Grubber the architect of Obama Care called Americans stupid for buying the lies of Obama care.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d44ff59cb2e8



Now that Trump wants to get rid of Obama Care and replace it with something better, he’s getting a lot of resistance just because he is Trump.





Just like the border issue Democrats are so busy resisting Trump that they wouldn’t sign off more funding to help the kids no matter how much boarder agents begged for more money and resources. Now that they barely got the resources conditions have improved.

They don’t want to close loop holes cartels are abusing, the family are contained for 20 days then released loophole which cartels are taking advantage of to smuggle kids in for slave labor.


And they say they are keeping kids separated to deter people, but the Trump administration reunited 95% of kids with their families. They separated kids to verify they are not victims of cartels. And to not imprison them for their parents crimes of illegally entering. Asylum seeking should be at ports of entry. Not in between ports where there is miles of dessert where people can dehydrate and die. There is a reason why it’s discourage.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailywire.com/news/49632/report-trump-administration-has-reunited-95-ashe-schow?amp



And the “cages” they complain about they were all built under the Obama administration. Not a single one under the Trump administration. The facilities built under the Trump administration all have air conditioning, water, and people to administer health care supplies.

 

[Xzi]

Now that Trump wants to get rid of Obama Care and replace it with something better, he’s getting a lot of resistance just because he is Trump.

For years before Trump we had heard Republicans make the claim that they want to replace it with "something better," yet no healthcare plan has ever materialized from them. Perhaps because Obamacare was already a compromise and an offshoot of Romneycare. I agree there are better options, but so far all those options are coming from Democratic candidates. If Trump has an equally palatable solution, he needs to present it.

Just like the border issue Democrats are so busy resisting Trump that they wouldn’t sign off more funding to help the kids no matter how much boarder agents begged for more money and resources. Now that they barely got the resources conditions have improved.

There is no evidence that conditions have improved, or you would've provided it. Recent publicized visits to the detention centers (such as Pence's) have shown otherwise.

They don’t want to close loop holes cartels are abusing, the family are contained for 20 days then released loophole which cartels are taking advantage of to smuggle kids in for slave labor.

Sounds like something that corporations would want in on, and not like something that Republicans would actually care to do something about.

And they say they are keeping kids separated to deter people, but the Trump administration reunited 95% of kids with their families. They separated kids to verify they are not victims of cartels. And to not imprison them for their parents crimes of illegally entering. Asylum seeking should be at ports of entry. Not in between ports where there is miles of dessert where people can dehydrate and die. There is a reason why it’s discourage.

Children have died in custody. Children have been raped and sexually abused in custody. The cartels cannot hold a candle to the danger presented to migrant children by the Trump administration. EDIT: Okay, that's a bit hyperbolic, but the Trump administration does present the same type of dangers that the cartels do, and unlike cartel members, ICE officers don't have to worry about facing criminal charges.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailywire.com/news/49632/report-trump-administration-has-reunited-95-ashe-schow?amp

The Daily Wire is tabloid garbage. And if they're basing their reporting on government-provided numbers, those are entirely misleading.

And the “cages” they complain about they were all built under the Obama administration. Not a single one under the Trump administration. The facilities built under the Trump administration all have air conditioning, water, and people to administer health care supplies.

As usual, Jim Jordan is full of shit. Three more ICE detention centers were opened as recently as last month. And it's largely irrelevant if they're being freshly built or not, the bigger issue is the Trump administration's over-reliance on private prison companies to run these centers.

 

[Saiyan Lusitano]

It feels a bit weird and ironic that people in US are against immigration when the majority of them are immigrants. Europeans, Africans and Asians all travelled from their own continents over to US, what's also known as the New World. Native Indians are the indigenous people of the Americas continent.

The natives of US lost their own country as the colonizers were too many and well armed to take over. So, don't hold a grudge at the word 'immigrant' but rather if it's a legal or illegal immigrant, legals have the right to stay while illegals tend to be deported as their application was rejected.

Some might not know that European-Americans went through the process of picking the definitive flag for the country they snatched from the Native Indians.

Spoiler

And Brazil, too.

Spoiler

I really wish my ancestors had just stayed in their own country and mind their own business than 'discover' land (despite there was people already living in).

P.S. Changing from Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day was a good call, but not enough.

P.P.S. I listen to the Texas radio "The Ranch" for its country music (one of most European-American things you can get) but the moment they play FOX News and how 'America is the greatest country in the world that we made and them immigrants ain't gonna take it from us' leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I already explained why.

At the very least I'd just wish people would be respectful and get along.

 

[Jayro]

What's going on with immigrant-holding and child-separation in this country is purely because of Trump and the Republicans.

Go ahead and commit a crime, ANY crime here in the U.S., and see if you get to be locked up WITH your children. Don't be stupid.

 

[Lacius]

Go ahead and commit a crime, ANY crime here in the U.S., and see if you get to be locked up WITH your children. Don't be stupid.

1. Many of the asylum seekers are not committing a crime by coming here.
2. The "crime" of coming here doesn't fit the punishment of family separation.
3. The border family separation policy did not exist before Trump.
4. The family separation policy exists solely as a punitive measure and deterrent, which is immoral.
5. There are crimes in the US that don't involve jail, let alone family-separation.
6. Children typically aren't forcibly separated from their families here in the US, unless there's an actual good reason and it's in the best interest of the child. There is nothing about the child's best interest involved in the child separation policy at the border.
7. Border separations are being done with no real system in place to reunite families.
8. Children at the border are being held in deplorable conditions.
9. Children at the border are dying.

Don't be stupid. If you are going to be stupid, you probably shouldn't tag someone who is going to call you out on it.

 

[Jayro]

There's a right way to come in, and they chose the wrong way. So they broke the law. Now I do agree that their living conditions are atrocious. Everyone deserves basic care, detained or not. That DOES need to change. But keeping our borders secured (Like all other countries do, mind you) is a must. And no, I don't like or support Trump, he sucks.

 

[mikefor20]

They brought their kids to a criminal endeavor. You know if i commit a felony they would put my kid in foster care if there wasn't an appropriate responsible LEGAL adult to watch him.

Illegally crossing the border is a crime. They are illegal. They should have left their spawn at home.

LACIUS. Obama separated kids too.

Closely monitoring the boarder is necessary. Don't be stupid. I don't like trump but the border is an issue. All the bleeding hearts will be sorry in the end. You better hope we protect your wishy washy ass when the shit hits the fan. secure the country.

 

[Xzi]

There's a right way to come in, and they chose the wrong way.

When the process of seeking asylum is criminalized, there is no longer a "right way." The cartels that operate in their home countries also operate in Mexico, so these people do not have years to wait around while some Trump-appointed judge reviews their paperwork and eventually decides to deny them entry anyway. Like so many other institutions in the US, our immigration system is completely broken right now, and the people who could potentially fix it are either maliciously complacent or criminally incompetent.

 

[invaderyoyo]

There's a right way to come in

No, there actually isn't. At least, not for a Mexican living in poverty. There is only the "wrong way" for those.

 

[Jayro]

No, there actually isn't. At least, not for a Mexican living in poverty. There is only the "wrong way" for those.

Well by all means, let them move in with you, if you're so inclined to help them. Mexico is a shithole, and that's not our problem. They need to fix their government, just like we need to fix ours.

 

[Rolf12]

Well by all means, let them move in with you, if you're so inclined to help them. Mexico is a shithole, and that's not our problem. They need to fix their government, just like we need to fix ours.

While you are correct that both governments need to be fixed [emoji3] there is an unnnice and long history of USA messing about in South America. What responsabilities that amounts in afterwards is not easy to say. Not to mention what Spain and Portugal did there before the US where running wild...

 

[invaderyoyo]

Well by all means, let them move in with you, if you're so inclined to help them. Mexico is a shithole, and that's not our problem. They need to fix their government, just like we need to fix ours.

You say that, but it has clearly become our problem. This "shithole" is right nextdoor to the US. There are millions of these people in the US.

 

[Jayro]

You say that, but it has clearly become our problem. This "shithole" is right nextdoor to the US. There are millions of these people in the US.

In my personal opinion, these "sanctuary cities" that are just running rampant with illegals need to be cracked down on. There's no reason to protect them. If anything, it would help us get out of the housing crisis our own people are in.