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The Illegal Immigration Non-Crisis in the USA

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grind3r4rlz

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Nice try cots.

Honk honk, cue the Benny Hill theme song!

I'm not @cots. From what I can tell about the person is that they are an Independent and that goes against more core values. I'm a Republican not someone who can't make up their mind. The only reason I came here is because of the moderator encouraging the assassination of our president that I found out about by lurking in your Discord server. I've reported that to the proper authorities. It's hard not to read what cots had to say when he's been 1 of the only 2 active chatters in the #chat channel for the last two or three months. I pinged him. Let's see what he has to say about it.
 

Lacius

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I'm not @cots. From what I can tell about the person is that they are an Independent and that goes against more core values. I'm a Republican not someone who can't make up their mind. The only reason I came here is because of the moderator encouraging the assassination of our president that I found out about by lurking in your Discord server. I've reported that to the proper authorities. It's hard not to read what cots had to say when he's been 1 of the only 2 active chatters in the #chat channel for the last two or three months. I pinged him. Let's see what he has to say about it.
In this thread, no one encouraged the assassination of anybody.
 

kuwanger

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It's a catch 22 situation where everybody harps on Congress and the Oval Office for not addressing the border crisis while simultaneously blocking any and all attempts at reforming the system.

I'll agree with that argument the second Congress actually does something. Btw, do you feel the same about Obamacare?

Edit - And to be clear, the reason I bring up Obamacare is because there's multiple Republican Senators on the record stating that hope Obamacare is stricken down by the courts. Some of that seems to be to remove any claims of culpability for repealing Obamacare and hence possibly losing votes. Others indicate they want it because they think it might spur further discussion of some sort of "compromise" legislation. Regardless, the point is that Congress seems intentionally punting to the courts just as much as they are to the Executive, but both sides bitch about it only when the outcome doesn't match their expectations. It's not really some core, principled stance for most politicians.
 
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Foxi4

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Thinking of the children intensifies

I wonder how tall the wall will have to be until children can no longer scale it safely. On a more serious note, the detention centers are overcrowded because illegal immigrants are not processed fast enough, which is a joint failure of the executive and the judiciary, and the border is not secure enough, which is a failure of the legislature. The Trump administration at least broached the issue, for which it deserves a lot of credit - we wouldn't even be talking about the deplorable conditions at the border if not for Trump's strong push for immigration reform, a staple of his 2016 run which effectively won him the election. Ideally I too would like the ports of entry to be fully equipped with both the resources and the legal power to determine asylum eligibility there and then, but that will take both money and effort of Congress to achieve. I hope to see such reform in my lifetime, but I won't hold my breath with both sides of the debate blockading each other.
I'll agree with that argument the second Congress actually does something. Btw, do you feel the same about Obamacare?
I think healthcare, just like any other service, should be fully privatised. As an extra spicy kicker I'll also say that Social Security should be dismantled, although to be fair, the latter is well in its way to dismantling itself as the Social Security trust fund is rapidly running out of money due to Social Security not being used for its original purpose - helping the poor and destitute, as opposed to being a second kitchen renovation fund for boomers who are already well-off.
 

kuwanger

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I think healthcare, just like any other service, should be fully privatised.

I think you're missing my point. tl;dr of my edit above, Obamacare is (possibly) being stricken down by the courts. Regardless of whether you think healthcare should be privatized or not, Congress pretty clearly passed legislation on multiple occasions (Medicare/Medicaid and Obamacare) to make it at least quasi-public. So, the courts acting to strike it down is clearly going against Legislative intent. Meanwhile, Congress has continued to not act on the border situation leaving it up to previous legislation, the executive branch, and court lawsuits over whether the executive branch is exceeding authorities delegated to it by Congress.
 

Foxi4

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I'm not @cots. From what I can tell about the person is that they are an Independent and that goes against more core values. I'm a Republican not someone who can't make up their mind. The only reason I came here is because of the moderator encouraging the assassination of our president that I found out about by lurking in your Discord server. I've reported that to the proper authorities. It's hard not to read what cots had to say when he's been 1 of the only 2 active chatters in the #chat channel for the last two or three months. I pinged him. Let's see what he has to say about it.
You can stop now. We know. It only gets more embarrassing as you continue. You can just use your original account, you won't lose more face than you already have.

Untitled4.png

I think you're missing my point. tl;dr of my edit above, Obamacare is (possibly) being stricken down by the courts. Regardless of whether you think healthcare should be privatized or not, Congress pretty clearly passed legislation on multiple occasions (Medicare/Medicaid and Obamacare) to make it at least quasi-public. So, the courts acting to strike it down is clearly going against Legislative intent. Meanwhile, Congress has continued to not act on the border situation leaving it up to previous legislation, the executive branch, and court lawsuits over whether the executive branch is exceeding authorities delegated to it by Congress.
I understand your question now. Yes, relying on the courts to do the job of the legislature is a dangerous game and I think the Republicans are sleeping with the devil here as they're loading the exact same gun they've been shot with before. They should endeavour to remove power from the courts, not enshrine it - this is not their job.
 

SG854

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  1. The rule change was after the full swing of the Trump child separation policy, so it's largely irrelevant to that specific issue.
  2. It doesn't affect many asylum seekers.
  3. It arguably doesn't affect any asylum seekers, but that's a matter for the courts.
  4. It is illegal to block the ability to seek asylum at ports of entry, which is what's happening.
  5. The rule change has no bearing on the laws being broken with regard to detaination time, conditions, etc.
  6. Children are still dying, regardless of the rule.
That's objectively false. This has nothing to do with child protection.


My post had a lot more to say than "think of the children," including very specific facts about the law.


They admitted the policy and the harm it caused served the purpose of deterring illegal immigration.


Acknowledging the plights and children (and adults) at the border isn't "emotional manipulation." They are important issues. If you want to say, "I don't care about the children and adults at the border," be my guest. Until then, you can't justifiably criticize me bringing it up as emotional manipulation.


Children will continue to suffer until there's a different administration that, among other things, doesn't see suffering as a deterrent that should be used as such.


Objectively, money is not the cause of the deplorable detainment conditions. It's definitely not the cause of the child separation policy.


  1. Underfunding is not the problem.
  2. Overcrowding is one of many problems.
  3. Telling you that children are dying might cause you (if you were an American) to vote for politicians who will actually fix the problem, since that is what it takes.


Whether or not we agree that border security is important, it's irrelevant to detaination conditions, child-separation, etc. And, as I said earlier in this post, the budget is not the issue.




I suggest you research why asylum seekers are fleeing their homes. The "dangerous conditions" part is rare, and it usually exists out of a desperate need. If seeking asylum were actually doable at ports of entry and not being mostly blocked by the Trump administration, these dangerous treks wouldn't happen. In other words, illegal border crossing by asylum seekers, including the dangerous ones, are the fault of the Trump administration.


That's a minority.


  1. That's what the Trump administration is doing to kids.
  2. Aside from crossing the border illegal, the vast majority aren't criminals.
  3. Many of the asylum seekers are legal asylum seekers.


  1. Aside from crossing the border illegal, the vast majority aren't criminals. We don't separate children from parents for traffic tickets, for example.
  2. Many of the asylum seekers are legal asylum seekers.
  3. The Trump administration had no plan to reunite the families.
  4. The children are being held in deplorable conditions.
  5. Children are dying.
  6. The illegal crossings are often happening because asylum seekers have no way to seek asylum at the ports of entry.

When the Ice Official said the Zero Tolerance Memo the source of this and he says he recommended things to secure the boarder and save lives. The family separation is like what it is with every other Native U.S. citizen that commits a crime.


Getting a traffic ticket is not the same as going to jail for committing a crime. Unless people want kids to go to jail with their parents they are separated.

The vast majority of illegal crossings are illegal, and are criminals under 8 U.S. code section 1325. And the ones that aren’t are doing it legally.
 
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Foxi4

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When the Ice Official said the Zero Tolerance Memo the source of this and he says he recommended things to secure the boarder and save lives. The family separation is like what it is with every other Native U.S. citizen that commits a crime.


Getting a traffic ticket is not the same as going to jail for committing a crime. Unless people want kids to go to jail with their parents they are separated.

The vast majority of illegal crossings are illegal, and are criminals under 8 U.S. code section 1325. And the ones that aren’t are doing it legally.
TIL illegally crossing the border is illegal, and for some reason needed to be explained.
 

grind3r4rlz

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You can stop now. We know. It only gets more embarrassing as you continue. You can just use your original account, you won't lose more face than you already have.

I'm not this @cots fellow so whatever you think you know is wrong. Wouldn't creating two accounts be a bannable offense? If so then ban us both. I'm not sure how he would take it, but I just got here and have already said what needed to be said.

When the Ice Official said the Zero Tolerance Memo the source of this and he says he recommended things to secure the boarder and save lives. The family separation is like what it is with every other Native U.S. citizen that commits a crime.

Getting a traffic ticket is not the same as going to jail for committing a crime. Unless people want kids to go to jail with their parents they are separated.

The vast majority of illegal crossings are illegal, and are criminals under 8 U.S. code section 1325. And the ones that aren’t are doing it legally.

There's the severity of the crime to think about. If you're a licensed citizen legally driving a that gets a minor ticket for going a little above the marked speed limit that's not that big of a deal compared to a foreign invader that you have no record of or know their intentions. I believe the current system is too lenient. While the border could use more resources I think that anything that encourages illegal activity and anything that helps illegals once they are here should be outlawed and that the people responsible for these things should be jailed in the process. Walls would help and so would armed guards. Possibly some sniper drones and land mines.
 

Lacius

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(false quote attributed to me)
(nonsense video)
(Two "On a more serious note" posts in a row, with one not being serious)
Are you having a stroke?

On a more serious note, the detention centers are overcrowded because illegal immigrants are not processed fast enough, which is a joint failure of the executive and the judiciary, and the border is not secure enough, which is a failure of the legislature.
They're overcrowded because of a broken immigration system and because of Trump administration policies. You also seem to have forgotten about the bipartisan immigration reform bill that was killed by the Republicans during Obama's presidency because, well, he was Obama. An inability to reform immigration now is the fault of Trump and the Republicans, and anything other than border security is not one of their priorities.

The Trump administration at least broached the issue, for which it deserves a lot of credit
Trump killed immigration reform. He deserves no credit.

we wouldn't even be talking about the deplorable conditions at the border if not for Trump's strong push for immigration reform
  1. We wouldn't be talking about the deplorable conditions at the border if not for Trump's deplorable conditions at the border.
  2. Trump's "strong push" for immigration reform is predominantly a.) A border wall, and b.) Less legal immigration.

a staple of his 2016 run which effectively won him the election.
Being anti-immigrant is what helped him win the election. Things that also helped him win the election include (but aren't limited to):
  1. A broken Electoral College system
  2. Russian interference
Ideally I too would like the ports of entry to be fully equipped with both the resources and the legislative power to determine asylum eligibility there and then, but that will take both money and effort of Congress to achieve.
Trump has practically blocked asylum seeking at the port of entries arbitrarily, not because there was any reason to. Doing this is also, arguably, illegal.

I think healthcare, just like any other service, should be fully privatised.
And how did that work out?

As an extra spicy kicker I'll also say that Social Security should be dismantled, although to be fair, the latter is well in its way to dismantling itself as the Social Security trust fund is rapidly running out of money due to Social Security not being used for its original purpose
In what world is Social Security running out of money, let alone rapidly? That's objectively false, but I don't expect you to concede anything.

helping the poor and destitute, as opposed to being a second kitchen renovation fund for boomers who are already well-off.
Many people use it for the former, not the latter.

When the Ice Official said the Zero Tolerance Memo the source of this and he says he recommended things to secure the boarder and save lives.
That's not the purpose of the child separation policy. They've already admitted the purpose of it and the harm it caused was to deter illegal immigration. There is nothing about the Trump family separation policy that "saves lives" or does any good.

The family separation is like what it is with every other Native U.S. citizen that commits a crime.
Not all crimes are equal. US families don't get separated with many/most crimes. As I said earlier:
  1. Aside from crossing the border illegal, the vast majority aren't criminals. We don't separate children from parents for traffic tickets, for example.
  2. Many of the asylum seekers are legal asylum seekers.
  3. The Trump administration had no plan to reunite the families.
  4. The children are being held in deplorable conditions.
  5. Children are dying.
  6. The illegal crossings are often happening because asylum seekers have no way to seek asylum at the ports of entry.
Getting a traffic ticket is not the same as going to jail for committing a crime. Unless people want kids to go to jail with their parents they are separated.
We aren't talking about jail or crimes big enough to cause one to go to jail. We are talking about illegal border crossings, detainment, and processing. And, again, for many asylum seekers, they are legal asylum seekers.

Family separation is deplorable, and it's psychological trauma. It should only be reserved in dire circumstances, and illegal border crossings isn't one of those circumstances. I don't know why you or anyone else are defending this.

The vast majority of illegal crossings are illegal, and are criminals under 8 U.S. code section 1325. And the ones that aren’t are doing it legally.
  1. Many of the asylum seekers are legal asylum seekers.
  2. Aside from the illegal border crossing itself, the vast majority of these people are not criminals.
  3. The detainment conditions are deplorable.
  4. Child-separation is deplorable.
  5. Children are dying.
  6. There was no plan to reunite the families.
  7. Illegal crossings are often happening because the Trump administration has illegally blocked seeking asylum at ports of entry.
Understandably, I'm getting tired of repeating myself. I'm probably going to limit my posts in this thread at some point in the near future.
 
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Lacius

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TIL illegally crossing the border is illegal, and for some reason needed to be explained.
  1. Many of the asylum seekers are legal asylum seekers.
  2. Aside from the illegal border crossing itself, the vast majority of these people are not criminals.
  3. The detainment conditions are deplorable.
  4. Child-separation is deplorable.
  5. Children are dying.
  6. There was no plan to reunite families with regard to the Trump family separation policy.
  7. Illegal crossings are often happening because the Trump administration has illegally blocked seeking asylum at ports of entry.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Yes, that's precisely the problem. There is no legal means by which to cross into the US now that Trump has criminalized the asylum process.
Illegally criminalized the asylum process, per federal law and international treaties.
 

Foxi4

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Are you having a stroke?

They're overcrowded because of a broken immigration system and because of Trump administration policies. You also seem to have forgotten about the bipartisan immigration reform bill that was killed by the Republicans during Obama's presidency because, well, he was Obama. An inability to reform immigration now is the fault of Trump and the Republicans, and anything other than border security is not one of their priorities.

Trump killed immigration reform. He deserves no credit.

We wouldn't be talking about the deplorable conditions at the border if not for Trump's deplorable conditions at the border.
Trump's "strong push" for immigration reform is predominantly a.) A border wall, and b.) Less legal immigration.

Being anti-immigrant is what helped him win the election. Things that also helped him win the election include (but aren't limited to):
  1. A broken Electoral College system
  2. Russian interference
Trump has practically blocked asylum seeking at the port of entries arbitrarily, not because there was any reason to. Doing this is also, arguably, illegal.

And how did that work out?

In what world is Social Security running out of money, let alone rapidly? That's objectively false, but I don't expect you to concede anything.

Many people use it for the former, not the latter.

That's not the purpose of the child separation policy. They've already admitted the purpose of it and the harm it caused was to deter illegal immigration. There is nothing about the Trump family separation policy that "saves lives" or does any good.

Not all crimes are equal. US families don't get separated with many/most crimes. As I said earlier:
  1. Aside from crossing the border illegal, the vast majority aren't criminals. We don't separate children from parents for traffic tickets, for example.
  2. Many of the asylum seekers are legal asylum seekers.
  3. The Trump administration had no plan to reunite the families.
  4. The children are being held in deplorable conditions.
  5. Children are dying.
  6. The illegal crossings are often happening because asylum seekers have no way to seek asylum at the ports of entry.
We aren't talking about jail or crimes big enough to cause one to go to jail. We are talking about illegal border crossings, detainment, and processing. And, again, for many asylum seekers, they are legal asylum seekers.

Family separation is deplorable, and it's psychological trauma. It should only be reserved in dire circumstances, and illegal border crossings isn't one of those circumstances. I don't know why you or anyone else are defending this.
  1. Many of the asylum seekers are legal asylum seekers.
  2. Aside from the illegal border crossing itself, the vast majority of these people are not criminals.
  3. The detainment conditions are deplorable.
  4. Child-separation is deplorable.
  5. Children are dying.
  6. There was no plan to reunite the families.
  7. Illegal crossings are often happening because the Trump administration has illegally blocked seeking asylum at ports of entry.
Understandably, I'm getting tired of repeating myself. I'm probably going to limit my posts in this thread at some point in the near future.
Well-spotted accidental repeat, predictive text betrays me once more, I've corrected it now. It's a shame that you didn't quite get the joke - let it simmer, it will dawn on you eventually. On the subject of fully privatised healthcare, I'm not sure how it would work out, first it would have to be tried - right now the system suffers from a lot of government interference and needless regulation that stifles competition between providers. There's a bigger problem in the system as well, associated more with the insurance side of things than with the care itself. I wouldn't trust my employer to choose toppings on my pizza, but in the American system it's the employer who collectively bargains with insurers on behalf of the employees, and I don't think their interests align, but that's a subject for a different thread altogether.

Regarding Social Security, it is absolutely set to go broke because it's a "self-funding" system - it has to operate on an income that exceeds expenditure in order to operate. With a decline in birthrate and the increase of lifespan Social Security recipients are more numerous than projected and withdraw more funds than they've been allotted when they entered the pool. The trust fund for disability and retirements is expected to run out by 2034-2035, the system will be able to sustain itself until around 2090 at which point it will end up in the same situation as in the 1980's - the program will have to be shored up, the government will have to issue more bonds and the funding mechanism will have to be changed, to the detriment of the newly enrolled. I'm not in the habit of "conceding" things I'm objectively right about, the numbers don't lie, but that's also a subject for another thread.

EDIT: Just figured I would add a source, since this seems to be a newsflash for some. Social Security expenditure is on the verge of exceeding income, that's projected to happen in 2020, at which point the program will rapidly fall off a cliff. Expect cuts, higher taxation and other shenanigans in the near future.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/soc...benefits-track-reduced-2035/story?id=62557507
 

SG854

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TIL illegally crossing the border is illegal, and for some reason needed to be explained.
When Ocasio Cortez said conditions are like holocaust concentration camps many holocaust survivors and anti defamation leagues came after her criticizing her.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.jt...-controversial-concentration-camp-comment/amp



People said that rhetoric like this comparing to the holocaust is dangerous because some crazy psycho would come along and guess what happened? An Antifa guy fire bombs an Ice facility and get shot and killed.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...sen-antifa-detention-centre-a9004131.html?amp
 

Foxi4

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Yes, that's precisely the problem. There is no legal means by which to cross into the US now that Trump has criminalized the asylum process.
You always have the option to request it at a point of entry. 9 times out of 10 the application will be rejected, but I imagine it's a superior alternative to incarceration. The whole process definitely needs to be streamlined, so it's a matter of weighing priorities. The priority for the current administration is patching up the border first and dealing with methods of entry later, which is one way to approach this. There's no "good" way that I can think of, not in the current adversarial atmosphere.
 

Lacius

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When Ocasio Cortez said conditions are like holocaust concentration camps many holocaust survivors and anti defamation leagues came after her criticizing her.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.jt...-controversial-concentration-camp-comment/amp



People said that rhetoric like this comparing to the holocaust is dangerous because some crazy psycho would come along and guess what happened? An Antifa guy fire bombs an Ice facility and get shot and killed.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/tacoma-ice-police-shooting-washington-willem-van-spronsen-antifa-detention-centre-a9004131.html?amp
  1. Plenty of groups have come out supporting AOC's comparisons.
  2. Many of those who have been critical of AOC's comments have also been very critical of the detention camps.
  3. While the detention camps a very different from concentration camps, the comparisons are fair.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

You always have the option to request it at a point of entry.
Respectfully, that's a false narrative used to make people feel better about what's going on. Many people are illegally being turned away without going through the application procedures. Some are even told to come back another day over and over again.
 

Foxi4

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  1. Plenty of groups have come out supporting AOC's comparisons.
  2. Many of those who have been critical of AOC's comments have also been very critical of the detention camps.
  3. While the detention camps a very different from concentration camps, the comparisons are fair.
Minus the whole "purposeful extermination" aspect of concentration camps, sure, it's an apt comparison, applicable to any detention center, from juvies to prisons. My question is as follows - what do you expect border security to do better? It's a fairly simple question you should have no problems answering, what would be a satisfactory resolution of the problem to you? Keep in mind that the solution must operate in accordance with pre-existing law.

Respectfully, that's a false narrative used to make people feel better about what's going on. Many people are illegally being turned away without going through the application procedures. Some are even told to come back another day over and over again.
It's also the official procedure. Perhaps border patrol agents would have more time to deal with those queries if they had more resources and didn't have to deal with as many illegal crossings. If only there was some solution to those two problems, I can't imagine what it could be though.
 

Xzi

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You always have the option to request it at a point of entry. 9 times out of 10 the application will be rejected, but I imagine it's a superior alternative to incarceration. The whole process definitely needs to be streamlined, so it's a matter of weighing priorities. The priority for the current administration is patching up the border first and dealing with methods of entry later, which is one way to approach this. There's no "good" way that I can think of, not in the current adversarial atmosphere.
The priority for the current administration is criminalizing all immigration. If their priority was to encourage legal immigration, they would've already provided a better means to legally immigrate. There's no reason that couldn't be accomplished while simultaneously working to patch security holes/physical holes in the existing barriers on the border. It's completely different departments/personnel that deal with each of these things.
 
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SG854

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Minus the whole "purposeful extermination" aspect of concentration camps, sure, it's an apt comparison, applicable to any detention center, from juvies to prisons. My question is as follows - what do you expect border security to do better? It's a fairly simple question you should have no problems answering, what would be a satisfactory resolution of the problem to you? Keep in mind that the solution must operate in accordance with pre-existing law.

It's also the official procedure. Perhaps border patrol agents would have more time to deal with those queries if they had more resources and didn't have to deal with as many illegal crossings. If only there was some solution to those two problems, I can't imagine what it could be though.
I don’t get it. Why would they want to come to this country? Conditions are so bad for U.S. workers, can’t even get a $15 an hour and have to work multiple jobs. But migrants from all over the world want to come into a Trumps racist country.

We don’t even have universal health care. And they exploit the common person with overly high medical prices. Black and brown people are discriminated against and locked up. Women are paid less. And school shootings with our gun crazy country. We have a homeless crisis, a growing gap between rich and poor, we are becoming third world.


The migrants don’t know any better we must warn them.
 

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    Make sure you smack my booty daddy
    +1
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    telling him that my partner is luke...does he look like someone with such big ne
    eds?
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    do you really think I could stand living with someone like luke?
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    I suppose luke has "special needs" but he's not my partner, did you just say that to piss me off again?
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    besides I had bigger worries today
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    but what do you know about that, you won't believe me anyways
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    @BigOnYa can answer that
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    BigOnYa already left the chat
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    Biginya
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Auto correct got me, I'm on my tablet, i need to turn that shit off
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    With other tabs open you perv
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    I'm actually in my shed, bout to cut 2-3 acres of grass, my back yard.
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    I use to have a guy for that thanks richard
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    I use my tablet to stream to a bluetooth speaker when in shed. iHeartRadio, FlyNation
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    While the victims are being buried
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    Grave shovel
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Nuh those goto the edge of the property (maybe just on the other side of)
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    On the neighbors side
    +1
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Yup, by the weird smelly green bushy looking plants.
    K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2: https://www.the-sun.com/news/10907833/self-checkout-complaints-new-target-dollar-general-policies...