Great Job,TESLA,we appreciate this !

[Alexander1970]

https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCa...uldnt_believe_it_asleep_in_heavy_friday_rush/

https://twitter.com/SethWageWar/status/1102712751313498112/video/1



Idiots.

I love that technology from TESLA.
Go on and we have a "sleeping" and "smartphoning" car driving society.

 

[Xzi]

Yeah I doubt these people have the level of autonomous driver assist necessary to be asleep at the wheel. For anyone unaware, there are five levels of driver assist available in Teslas, level 5 being fully autonomous, but it's extremely pricey (on top of the already-high price of the cars themselves). The crazy thing is that, as far as I know, neither of these incidents resulted in a crash, so the technology is definitely improving. The sooner we can all sleep in our cars without having to worry about human error causing our deaths, the better.

 

[Alexander1970]

Yeah I doubt these people have the level of autonomous driver assist necessary to be asleep at the wheel. For anyone unaware, there are five levels of driver assist available in Teslas, level 5 being fully autonomous, but it's extremely pricey (on top of the already-high price of the cars themselves). The crazy thing is that, as far as I know, neither of these incidents resulted in a crash, so the technology is definitely improving. The sooner we can all sleep in our cars without having to worry about human error causing our deaths, the better.

Do you know "Terminator - RISE of the MACHINES ?

 

[Xzi]

Do you know "Terminator - RISE of the MACHINES ?

Rogue AI can potentially exterminate us with or without autonomous cars, I think it's worth the risk if it means no more drunk/high drivers on the road.

 

[Alexander1970]

I think it's worth the risk if it means no more drunk/high drivers on the road.

As long as they stay anonymous and get a therapy.

 

[notimp]

Seems like an engineering problem.. If driver is asleep, car should probably stop - if safe? Or much rather - beep like a mofo, so driver wakes up again. (Doesnt work if drivers are deaf, build in contingency.. )

Safety feature so far is "you have to keep hands on the wheel". Engineers havent thought about - well, you can do that while sleeping..

 

[DBlaze]

While I agree they should build in some safety measure for this, I can't really blame it all on Tesla, users of anything are sometimes top tier retarded.

 

[notimp]

*wakes up in oregon* (/another state) as the first twitter comment suggests is probably what would happen though. If the battery doesnt run out first.. in which case I'm pretty sure the car would start beeping.

On interstates the teslas are supposed to be "pretty safe" as in "can follow the roadmarkings.. " already..

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

While I agree they should build in some safety measure for this, I can't really blame it all on Tesla, users of anything are sometimes top tier retarded.

Engineers still should have thought of that.

Its not an easy thing to fix though. Because you dont want to "surveil" users, and if you annoy them with a beep too often (false positive), they start to complain..

 

[DBlaze]

*wakes up in oregon* (/another state) as the first twitter comment suggests is probably what would happen though. If the battery doesnt run out first.. in which case I'm pretty sure the car would start beeping.

On interstates the teslas are supposed to be "pretty safe" as in "can follow the roadmarkings.. " already..

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


Engineers still should have thought of that.

Its not an easy thing to fix though. Because you dont want to "surveil" users, and if you annoy them with a beep too often (false positive), they start to complain..

They probably did and are still thinking about it, hence the hands-on thing, I personally wouldnt be able to hold my hands on the wheel if i would fall asleep in the way it requires you to do every now and then, but that's me personally.
Then again I would also not sit behind the wheel if i was tired enough to actually fall asleep while driving, if I notice myself drifting off, I stop at the first place I can.

It's a hard thing to crack yeah, obviously the hands-on thing isn't enough, and other things are risky/annoying for users.
Should maybe have had a mandatory button you actually need to press instead of hands-on, or a combination of both.

But what do I know of car engineering; not much, if anything at all lol

 

[notimp]

Twitter CEO Musk to the rescue to give more details.

Exactly. Default Autopilot behavior, if there’s no driver input, is to slow gradually to a stop & turn on hazard lights. Tesla service then contacts the owner. Looking into what happened here.

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) December 3, 2018

After a fist incidence of that sort.

 

[Taleweaver]

Sorry, but I fail to see the problem here.

It's not that I don't understand the issue, but you've got to approach these situations rationally rather than emotionally. And that paints a picture that is arguably much darker, but can also be seen as optimistic.

Let's start with the obvious: drunk driving is prohibited and highly frowned upon. Why? Not because drunk people actively drive into sidewalks or cause accidents (that happens, of course, but for that you've got to be way more drunk than necessary), but because even small amounts of alcohol lower the reaction time to a position where the reaction time is simply inadequate to properly react to upcoming situations (assuming a normal driving speed).

And guess what: the same happens when your car drives for you. Sure, in theory the driver can instantly spot any mistake the computer driver makes, take over the wheel and stop and/or maneuver the car to avoid collision, driving off the road or whatever it is that the computer attempted to do that wasn't safe. In reality, your mind numbs down when not actively processing the input. It's the same risk that truck drivers face when they're driving the same highway for hours on end: the passivity of monotony can get them into a slow motion trance (they still see the road and can thus 'wake up' whenever something draws near that requires a manoever, but their reaction is seriously diminished). I haven't read much about traffic incidents involving computer driven cars(1), but in the instance where I read about it, it was exactly as I would've predicted: the driver had become so used to the computer driving spotless that he completely failed to react whenever that was needed.

So all in all, the question is wrong. It shouldn't be "why is that guy being dangerous sleeping behind his self-driving car?", but rather "why do self-driving cars still have a wheel?".


The answer to that latter question is rather interesting. It is that Tesla is smart enough to know that they're selling cars to humans, and that there will be humans on the side of the road (the OP video nicely proves that last one, btw)). Whenever we get in an elevator to anything but say two floors up, we pretty much trust the machine with our lives (if it fails, we're dead). But because we're so used to it and the potential danger isn't shown, our guard is down. But meanwhile, we've driven cars manually for many, many years now. Surely we can't blindly trust a machine to drive better than ourselves...right?

The sad truth is that it can. And is busy doing so. But that's thinking rationally. Emotionally, each and every driver claims to have above average driving skill. And I'm sure each and every driver will also put their own skills above the computer, so there is no way that anyone's going to buy a car (yet) without a wheel.
The same goes for bystanders. That little movie could've been part of a horror movie. I won't deny it: that really looks scary to me. And it does so because I've seen people drive cars my entire life and I've driven quite a bit since I'm an adult. But I bet that this sort of thing could become pretty common to the next generation...



(1): which, considering the amount of kilometers traveled, puts them well above human drivers, actually

 

[Alexander1970]

Sorry, but I fail to see the problem here.

It's not that I don't understand the issue, but you've got to approach these situations rationally rather than emotionally. And that paints a picture that is arguably much darker, but can also be seen as optimistic.

Let's start with the obvious: drunk driving is prohibited and highly frowned upon. Why? Not because drunk people actively drive into sidewalks or cause accidents (that happens, of course, but for that you've got to be way more drunk than necessary), but because even small amounts of alcohol lower the reaction time to a position where the reaction time is simply inadequate to properly react to upcoming situations (assuming a normal driving speed).

And guess what: the same happens when your car drives for you. Sure, in theory the driver can instantly spot any mistake the computer driver makes, take over the wheel and stop and/or maneuver the car to avoid collision, driving off the road or whatever it is that the computer attempted to do that wasn't safe. In reality, your mind numbs down when not actively processing the input. It's the same risk that truck drivers face when they're driving the same highway for hours on end: the passivity of monotony can get them into a slow motion trance (they still see the road and can thus 'wake up' whenever something draws near that requires a manoever, but their reaction is seriously diminished). I haven't read much about traffic incidents involving computer driven cars(1), but in the instance where I read about it, it was exactly as I would've predicted: the driver had become so used to the computer driving spotless that he completely failed to react whenever that was needed.

So all in all, the question is wrong. It shouldn't be "why is that guy being dangerous sleeping behind his self-driving car?", but rather "why do self-driving cars still have a wheel?".


The answer to that latter question is rather interesting. It is that Tesla is smart enough to know that they're selling cars to humans, and that there will be humans on the side of the road (the OP video nicely proves that last one, btw)). Whenever we get in an elevator to anything but say two floors up, we pretty much trust the machine with our lives (if it fails, we're dead). But because we're so used to it and the potential danger isn't shown, our guard is down. But meanwhile, we've driven cars manually for many, many years now. Surely we can't blindly trust a machine to drive better than ourselves...right?

The sad truth is that it can. And is busy doing so. But that's thinking rationally. Emotionally, each and every driver claims to have above average driving skill. And I'm sure each and every driver will also put their own skills above the computer, so there is no way that anyone's going to buy a car (yet) without a wheel.
The same goes for bystanders. That little movie could've been part of a horror movie. I won't deny it: that really looks scary to me. And it does so because I've seen people drive cars my entire life and I've driven quite a bit since I'm an adult. But I bet that this sort of thing could become pretty common to the next generation...



(1): which, considering the amount of kilometers traveled, puts them well above human drivers, actually

Do you know the Pixar/Disney Movie "WALL·E" ?

Then you mabye understand MY problem.

 

[Kioku]

...and yet it's far safer than a lot of the people driving like complete assholes. Meh, I fail to see an issue here. Read the reddit thread. Seems to be better comprehension as to the situation than what can be grasped here in temptown.

People fall asleep while driving all of the time. Maybe the issue is the complacency that will arise from this technology?

 

[Alexander1970]

...and they don´t see where it leads......
As predicted in "old" Movies.......

A brainless,unindependent and not thinking human society.
Without resistance.....

 

[Taleweaver]

Do you know the Pixar/Disney Movie "WALL·E" ?

Then you mabye understand MY problem.

People getting so spoiled by technology that the most basic tasks become impossible achievements because they're all so obese?
Yeah, I've seen it. But if you think this is a telltale, then I don't believe you. I mean... I'm driven to work on a daily basis (I take the train), but commuters like me aren't more fat than those driving a car.

 

[8BitWonder]

...and they don´t see where it leads......
As predicted in "old" Movies.......

A brainless,unindependent and not thinking human society.
Without resistance.....

Self-driving cars aren't going to lead to a brainless society, they're only a means of transportation.
Additionally, I think you're forgetting that a lot of people will likely not opt for or use auto-piloting technology for cars.

 

[dAVID_]

A solution would be to implement a camera in the car, and use a face recognition system based on artificial intelligence to determine whether the driver is asleep or not. The only problem with this solution is that raises privacy concerns.

 

[ThoD]

Gonna just drop this here...


Basically the less people drive, the safe it will be and the better things will be. Self-driving cars are a good thing, to be honest they shouldn't even let human input, but we aren't at that point yet...

As for OP, I don't see anything wrong, it's not like it's high speed driving, the AI is more than capable of handling slow driving safely, so why all the debate?:/

 

[Alexander1970]

Gonna just drop this here...


As for OP, I don't see anything wrong, it's not like it's high speed driving, the AI is more than capable of handling slow driving safely, so why all the debate?:/

Not for that,but for the more and more comprehensive independence of people to do something themselves.

 

[The Real Jdbye]

Self-driving cars aren't going to lead to a brainless society, they're only a means of transportation.
Additionally, I think you're forgetting that a lot of people will likely not opt for or use auto-piloting technology for cars.

Not everyone right now is just gonna switch to auto-pilot cars, but future generations of drivers are likely not going to even bother learning how to drive if they can just buy a self driving car that does it for them for not much more, and eventually every car will be self-driving as that becomes the mainstream thing and manually driven cars are seen as archaic.

Sorry, but I fail to see the problem here.

It's not that I don't understand the issue, but you've got to approach these situations rationally rather than emotionally. And that paints a picture that is arguably much darker, but can also be seen as optimistic.

Let's start with the obvious: drunk driving is prohibited and highly frowned upon. Why? Not because drunk people actively drive into sidewalks or cause accidents (that happens, of course, but for that you've got to be way more drunk than necessary), but because even small amounts of alcohol lower the reaction time to a position where the reaction time is simply inadequate to properly react to upcoming situations (assuming a normal driving speed).

And guess what: the same happens when your car drives for you. Sure, in theory the driver can instantly spot any mistake the computer driver makes, take over the wheel and stop and/or maneuver the car to avoid collision, driving off the road or whatever it is that the computer attempted to do that wasn't safe. In reality, your mind numbs down when not actively processing the input. It's the same risk that truck drivers face when they're driving the same highway for hours on end: the passivity of monotony can get them into a slow motion trance (they still see the road and can thus 'wake up' whenever something draws near that requires a manoever, but their reaction is seriously diminished). I haven't read much about traffic incidents involving computer driven cars(1), but in the instance where I read about it, it was exactly as I would've predicted: the driver had become so used to the computer driving spotless that he completely failed to react whenever that was needed.

So all in all, the question is wrong. It shouldn't be "why is that guy being dangerous sleeping behind his self-driving car?", but rather "why do self-driving cars still have a wheel?".


The answer to that latter question is rather interesting. It is that Tesla is smart enough to know that they're selling cars to humans, and that there will be humans on the side of the road (the OP video nicely proves that last one, btw)). Whenever we get in an elevator to anything but say two floors up, we pretty much trust the machine with our lives (if it fails, we're dead). But because we're so used to it and the potential danger isn't shown, our guard is down. But meanwhile, we've driven cars manually for many, many years now. Surely we can't blindly trust a machine to drive better than ourselves...right?

The sad truth is that it can. And is busy doing so. But that's thinking rationally. Emotionally, each and every driver claims to have above average driving skill. And I'm sure each and every driver will also put their own skills above the computer, so there is no way that anyone's going to buy a car (yet) without a wheel.
The same goes for bystanders. That little movie could've been part of a horror movie. I won't deny it: that really looks scary to me. And it does so because I've seen people drive cars my entire life and I've driven quite a bit since I'm an adult. But I bet that this sort of thing could become pretty common to the next generation...



(1): which, considering the amount of kilometers traveled, puts them well above human drivers, actually

Are self driving cars that aren't human controllable even legal? Does the government place that much trust in AI? AI can make mistakes, not that humans can't, but moreover, the only people that know exactly how the AI works is Tesla themselves, and who knows if they did a perfect job? Just the idea of leaving all control in the hands of a machine that will have to decide what to do if it encounters a situation where bodily harm is unavoidable and not having any means to take control from it is scary to say the least.

It's not the same thing as an elevator because an elevator is not AI and if it falls down it's because a mechanic/electrician didn't do their job or the manager of the building didn't bother to pay a mechanic/electrician for maintenance work. You can't blame it on the elevator.

But if an AI fails to respond to a situation in a way that is acceptable to most humans (and this is a really tough decision to make when designing AI because what in the hell do you make it do if someone is driving down the wrong side of the road on the highway and it's a steep fall down the side and it's either your life or theirs?) then people are gonna blame the AI and additionally people are not likely to trust the company behind it anymore.
Not to say a real person would do any better at making that decision than a machine would because it's just a bad situation overall, but that's just an example.

If a real person made a bad decision when driving that resulted in bodily harm they would likely lose their license and that's the problem solved. If lots of people have self driving cars and one of the cars makes a bad decsion that results in an accident then every single self driving car from that brand is suspect. And if the cars have no way to for a human to take control it's doubly bad as then the cars become essentially worthless. It only takes one accident like this to ruin it for everyone. At least if the car has a wheel you could argue that the human behind the wheel is also at fault for not noticing the issue and taking control (given that they had reasonable time to do so of course) and having that option gives some extra safety and peace of mind even if you are right in that the driver will pay less attention when they are not actively driving.

The thing is that AI is such a complex thing that we can never really trust it fully with our lives because intentionally or not AI will make mistakes just like humans do. And if we can't trust it fully with our lives it makes no sense whatsoever to take away that human control. Just like if someone is a bad driver and gets into accidents it makes no sense to keep letting them drive. If you're a passenger in a car and the driver is falling asleep you wouldn't just let them continue driving right? You would ask them to pull over either to get some sleep or to let you take the wheel. That could be applied as a metaphor to self driving cars. Now imagine that they tell you "no" and continue driving and eventually fall asleep and get into an accident. They'd lose their license just like that. What if that was a self driving car and you couldn't take the wheel even if you wanted to even as you see an accident is about to occur. Always have a plan B so that this stuff is less likely to happen. And if it happens anyway, the driver is as much to blame as the AI.

If vehicles were intelligently linked together and every car knew where every other car nearby was this would be less of an issue as the car would be able to spot a bad driver or a potential accident ahead of time and avoid it before it ever becomes a problem. Course that doesn't help them detect nearby pedestrians but in places that have pedestrians crossing, the speed limit should be low enough to avoid deaths even in a worst case scenario. Maybe this will become a thing once everyone has a self driving car and at that point we could probably say the technology is safe enough that no human control would ever be required, just frequent maintenance to make sure all the sensors and such are in order. With every car knowing the position of every other car and no potential bad drivers to cause accidents or almost-accidents that result in the AI making less than savory decisions, eliminating the human element completely might actually work. But as long as there are some human drivers on the road there is always that risk of potential accidents that the AI may not be able to handle.