Who should pay for the US/Mexican wall?

[Taleweaver]

Pfff...I can hardly make time for this thread anymore. There are some very interesting things being said, but I really don't have the time to reply to everyone. Sorry.

Well, we all know who the spoon-fed college student is now...

I know you don't mean it as such, but I'll take that as a compliment. From my perspective, most of what Donald's doing is basically saying "here...go catch" when he says something. By the time his critics have fundamental proof that he's lying, he just throws another lie out to catch. Result: in the mean time, he's using that "benefit of the doubt" time to convince the remaining people (those too uneducated to second guess whatever he's saying) that those people researching things are the enemy.

I just get tired of people that prefer to get their news from celebrities and news stations (CNN and Fox included) instead of doing their own independent research.

Funny: I get the same tiring feeling for the very same reason in this argument. It's just not plural: there is only one celebrity (he happens to be president) and at best one news station on Trump's side.

Based on the most recent USA Census, about 63% of illegal immigrants access the US Welfare system for financial support. Coupling that with the fact that $18.3 billion is spent annually for Medicaid-funded medical visits, the entirety of the wall could be funded easily AND still have substantial money left over from just the taxpayer-funded Medicaid spent in one year!

No one's arguing the problem, so don't bother with those numbers. But if the majority of those illegal Mexicans come in through airports or with green cards, then THAT is where you should focus the solution.

The arguments provided by many online and in person are, for the most part, emotionally based and do not take the economyand national wellbeing into account.

Could be, but even so: they're irrelevant. Trump could dress and talk like a normal person, but with the same (lack of) arguments he has, he still won't convince anyone. It'd probably turn down the personal attacks a bit, though.

But on topic: since you dish intellectual opinions for being "elite"...do you really want to talk about economy and national well being? I can discuss quite a bit on fallacies like "stealing American jobs" or "immigrants are bad for the economy", but either I make things up as I go along (which you won't like because 'lack of sources'), or either I research (which you won't like because 'I don't have an opinion of my own'). If you're going to dislike it either way, then - no offence - I'm done arguing with you.

 

[DarthDub]

I heard on the radio that Trump could use the military to build the wall.

 

[Xzi]

I heard on the radio that Trump could use the military to build the wall.

He's back to threatening a declaration of national emergency. In which case the money would indeed be taken from the military and disaster relief funds. A federal judge could strike that down pretty quick, though.

 

[Taleweaver]

I heard on the radio that Trump could use the military to build the wall.

That would be an interesting twist, but TBH I think the presenter mostly forgot to add "Trump says...".

From what I can make of this, this is true IF he can convince "Pentagon lawyers that the situation there constitutes a threat to national security – a true national emergency, and not a law enforcement matter" (source).

I'm not very proficient in US army spending. I know USA has the largest army (and spends the most on it), but even so, I think this would take a huge bite out of army budget that could be located at useful targets. So...I don't think those pentagon lawyers are quickly going to come through to Trump. I mean...it's not like there is any southern army amassing at the border or anything. And Trump firing Mattis probably didn't help much in that regard either.

 

[SuzieJoeBob]

Pfff...I can hardly make time for this thread anymore. There are some very interesting things being said, but I really don't have the time to reply to everyone. Sorry.


I know you don't mean it as such, but I'll take that as a compliment. From my perspective, most of what Donald's doing is basically saying "here...go catch" when he says something. By the time his critics have fundamental proof that he's lying, he just throws another lie out to catch. Result: in the mean time, he's using that "benefit of the doubt" time to convince the remaining people (those too uneducated to second guess whatever he's saying) that those people researching things are the enemy.

Funny: I get the same tiring feeling for the very same reason in this argument. It's just not plural: there is only one celebrity (he happens to be president) and at best one news station on Trump's side.


No one's arguing the problem, so don't bother with those numbers. But if the majority of those illegal Mexicans come in through airports or with green cards, then THAT is where you should focus the solution.


Could be, but even so: they're irrelevant. Trump could dress and talk like a normal person, but with the same (lack of) arguments he has, he still won't convince anyone. It'd probably turn down the personal attacks a bit, though.

But on topic: since you dish intellectual opinions for being "elite"...do you really want to talk about economy and national well being? I can discuss quite a bit on fallacies like "stealing American jobs" or "immigrants are bad for the economy", but either I make things up as I go along (which you won't like because 'lack of sources'), or either I research (which you won't like because 'I don't have an opinion of my own'). If you're going to dislike it either way, then - no offence - I'm done arguing with you.

1) Don't get me wrong; Donald Trump's method of debate/insulting and subsequent temper tantrums like a 3-year-old are highly unrespectable as a person, let alone as the spokesperson for an entire nation. He needs to grow the hell up and treat his position with the respect it deserves, as well as stop making claims just to create news headlines about himself.

2) Hispanic immigrants are not stealing jobs; they are doing the ones that most Americans find beneath them, but then complain are being stolen from them. Most of the ones compliaining about jobs being stolen by Hispanics are the same ones that vegitate on their couches and milk the government for Social Security, food stamps, and welfare.

3) People that manipulate government programs for unnecessary handouts (citizens AND illegal/legal immigrants) DO harm the economy, while ones that aren't don't. Assistance is supposed to be for people whom cannot get by on what they currently have, not for people that want to live lavish lifestyles at the taxpayers' expense.

4) Both sides of my family came to the United States the LEGAL way, selling much of what they had to get here. The reason aquiring citizenship is such an expensive undertaking is to see who is truly serious about becoming a citizen. Unfortunately, the pathway to citizenship is TOO expensive and is a major deterrent for that exact same reason.

If countries allowed the United States to run more in-depth background checks using the immigrants' original home countries' citizenship information (and vice-versa), the ability for people to become citizens of the United States would be much less rigorous.

 

[Ericthegreat]

"Donald J. Trump: the one person on the planet who's really passionate about building it" Eh, seems a good amount of us citizens (people who voted for him) are quite happy with the wall.

 

[Tigran]

Not enough to fund it according to the GoFundme.

 

[The Catboy]

Just a reminder for anyone who supports the wall, planes and boats still exist. A wall is a waste of money and you are stupid if you believe it would do anything

 

[FAST6191]

Just a reminder for anyone who supports the wall, planes and boats still exist. A wall is a waste of money and you are stupid if you believe it would do anything

A wall as envisioned/talked about would do something. Whether that something would justify the cost is an entirely different matter.

 

[kuwanger]

"Donald J. Trump: the one person on the planet who's really passionate about building it"

You know, that's a great line. Makes me realize not only should Donald J Trump pay for the wall, he should build it himself. One could call it "hard labor". One could call it "something to do in between tweets because the government is shutdown anyways". I just like the idea of vision of Trump out there on the southern border with shovel in hand, some bags of cement, etc trying to build that wall.

 

[Xzi]

"Donald J. Trump: the one person on the planet who's really passionate about building it" Eh, seems a good amount of us citizens (people who voted for him) are quite happy with the wall.

They shouldn't be, since they were also promised Mexico would pay for the wall. They're short-sighted idiots willing to forgive any flaw or lie, though.

Also worth remembering that many of the people who are in support of the wall don't see a need for the government to be shut down over negotiations for it.

 

[Taleweaver]

"Donald J. Trump: the one person on the planet who's really passionate about building it" Eh, seems a good amount of us citizens (people who voted for him) are quite happy with the wall.

Well,then they should get on record about it. Rally in the street. Hold banners and make sure you support your president. I'm not a us citizen, and from what I hear, it really appears as if he's the only person in the world who believes in it.
In case you hadn't noticed :your government is in shutdown over the issue having people voice their opinions seems pretty ligitimate (on both sides, BTW).

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You know, that's a great line. Makes me realize not only should Donald J Trump pay for the wall, he should build it himself. One could call it "hard labor". One could call it "something to do in between tweets because the government is shutdown anyways". I just like the idea of vision of Trump out there on the southern border with shovel in hand, some bags of cement, etc trying to build that wall.

Someone even made him a nice plan, complete with a single nimbus key:

Spoiler

 

[kuwanger]

Someone even made him a nice plan, complete with a single nimbus key:

You know Trump. He'll lose the plans, break the key, and then blame the Democrats, all while sitting in the Oval Office. Having to actually life a finger to do actual work? That's too much. Besides, everyone knows you got to liter the plans with "Trump" (possibly embossed on each slat) or he'll lose interest after a few seconds.

 

[Lumstar]

The whole shebang is flawed from the start. If this money were put toward addressing WHY people flee Mexico in such numbers...

 

[Retro_Mod_Gamer]

First of all I just want to point out that I don't understand the need people have to bring Trump into literally EVERYTHING, including our little online playgrounds where we are supposed to unite for our love of video games... aside from that, here's what I have to say to this obviously anti-Trump post.

Do you want open borders or well-funded social programs? Pick one. Both cannot simultaneously exist because it is unsustainable. If you disagree with this, please explain how you can achieve both, I assure you they are mutually exclusive.

Open borders? No social programs.
Welfare state? Shuttered borders.

 

[Tigran]

First of all I just want to point out that I don't understand the need people have to bring Trump into literally EVERYTHING, including our little online playgrounds where we are supposed to unite for our love of video games... aside from that, here's what I have to say to this obviously anti-Trump post.

Do you want open borders or well-funded social programs? Pick one. Both cannot simultaneously exist because it is unsustainable. If you disagree with this, please explain how you can achieve both, I assure you they are mutually exclusive.

Open borders? No social programs.
Welfare state? Shuttered borders.

Well.. for one.. This is the world news section.. Two.. the reason why he is being brought up. The mother fucking cum guzzling ass fucking Putin cock sucking zubat is the one who SHUT OUR GOVERNMENT DOWN because he literally has to win a dick waving contest.

And no.. Just because you don't understand how the fuck shit works, doesn't mean it goes the way you -think- it does.

His wall would cost a HUGE amount every year just to keep operated, hell in order to fund it, he wants to pull from Disaster relief and department of homeland security, *Which I don't like.. but don't say we need to do it for security then gut you're goddamn security division! Unless YOU would be willing to use you're doors to build a fence around you're yard!

That still ignores that most undocumented immagrints came in LEGALLY *so you can't even argue that they broke the law to get here* and simply stayed.

But here is a logical solution to combating some of the problems... Fine/Arrest the people who HIRE undocumented immigrants. If the "Job opportunity" dried up... a lot of the issues would go away. Also.. the asshole mcasshole face kept ignoring that the people with the caravans were there to LEGALLY APPLY for asylum.

But no.. you're just probably afraid some brown person is going to come after you.

 

[Retro_Mod_Gamer]

Well.. for one.. This is the world news section.. Two.. the reason why he is being brought up. The mother fucking cum guzzling ass fucking Putin cock sucking zubat is the one who SHUT OUR GOVERNMENT DOWN because he literally has to win a dick waving contest.

And no.. Just because you don't understand how the fuck shit works, doesn't mean it goes the way you -think- it does.

His wall would cost a HUGE amount every year just to keep operated, hell in order to fund it, he wants to pull from Disaster relief and department of homeland security, *Which I don't like.. but don't say we need to do it for security then gut you're goddamn security division! Unless YOU would be willing to use you're doors to build a fence around you're yard!

That still ignores that most undocumented immagrints came in LEGALLY *so you can't even argue that they broke the law to get here* and simply stayed.

But here is a logical solution to combating some of the problems... Fine/Arrest the people who HIRE undocumented immigrants. If the "Job opportunity" dried up... a lot of the issues would go away. Also.. the asshole mcasshole face kept ignoring that the people with the caravans were there to LEGALLY APPLY for asylum.

But no.. you're just probably afraid some brown person is going to come after you.

Ah yes the ad hominem attacks and make it about me. "[I'm]...afraid some brown person is going to come after [me]". I don't even live in the USA so how can you make this about me being afraid?

Adding 3b to border security isn't much money in the scale of a Federal budget, Schumer and Pelosi can end the shutdown tomorrow but they refuse to negotiate at all.

I'm fine with open borders, I'm fine with social programs, they are just incompatible. I'm not seeing your argument for how they can coexist.

It's already illegal to hire undocumented immigrants, punishable with criminal fines and loss of business licenses. I know this, and you think I don't understand how stuff works? You're just an angry person who hates Trump and doesn't care about the facts. Trump Derangement Syndrome on display for all.

 

[SuzieJoeBob]

Well,then they should get on record about it. Rally in the street. Hold banners and make sure you support your president. I'm not a us citizen, and from what I hear, it really appears as if he's the only person in the world who believes in it.
In case you hadn't noticed :your government is in shutdown over the issue having people voice their opinions seems pretty ligitimate (on both sides, BTW).

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Someone even made him a nice plan, complete with a single nimbus key:

I really wish those walls were available as Legos. It would have saved me hours when building Lego buildings as a kid...

 

[Xzi]

I'm fine with open borders, I'm fine with social programs, they are just incompatible. I'm not seeing your argument for how they can coexist.

The hell are you talking about? Firstly, nobody is advocating for "open borders." Secondly, we've had social programs for well over half a century now, regardless of what immigration policy changes have been made over the years. The two are completely separate issues with completely separate funding. We can work out funding for border security, a path to citizenship, and still expand current social programs or implement new ones. None of this requires the government to be shut down to accomplish.

 

[Retro_Mod_Gamer]

The hell are you talking about? Firstly, nobody is advocating for "open borders." Secondly, we've had social programs for well over half a century now, regardless of what immigration policy changes have been made over the years. The two are complete separate issues with completely separate funding. We can work out a path to citizenship and still expand current social programs or implement new ones.

A path to citizenship is great, but a lot of the same people that are against borders are also for free healthcare and education. If you let everyone in to receive the social programs the burden becomes too great and they collapse. People need to decide if borders matter or not as one issue, and then if they should be enforced or not as a separate issue. We've had political discourse with as much nuance as "If Trump is for it, I'm against it" for two years now and it's tiring as hell.