This morning I was watching The Wright Stuff on British breakfast television, a daily panel show featuring current news affairs, when I noticed the next topic to be discussed was about a 'computer game' called Detroit Become Human:

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Detroit: Become Human is the latest game to come from creator David Cage, a 2018 Sony PlayStation 4 exclusive title, that featured a scene of potential domestic child abuse when a new trailer aired at Sony's Paris Game's Week 2017 Conference. You can see the full trailer here:

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David Cage is no stranger to controversial subjects in his games. I've played Fahrenheit and also Heavy Rain and both of these games feature murder, the latter with a serial killer who kidnaps a child. So why is this new game suddenly on daytime breakfast TV? Because it's controversial, and without the controversial, off-screen scene, the game wouldn't have appeared on all of the mainstream gaming sites. So we all saw this a month ago, but only now is the printed press and big media catching onto it, because it's an easy target for a headline.

I'm no expert on what Detroit: Become Human is, but I gather from related media that it's a story-driven game with a heavy narrative, much like all of Cage's previous works. You play as an android and throughout the game are presented with game-changing decisions, but do you live through the story as an android would, or do you make the android 'Become Human' by making morally correct decisions as a human would, breaking the android's protocol, kind of I, Roboty. In theory, you could finish the game without even seeing this scene play out the wrong way. Choices given to the player are designed in such a way as to spark some kind of emotion from them. That is what this type of game is all about.

I've watched TWS on TV for many years, but today, with a headline like 'Ban Child Abuse Computer Game?' on the TV, I felt compelled to call the show and try and advocate as to why a scene like this in a video game isn't a reason to ban it. To my surprise, I got through!

Here is the clip of the entire discussion on the show today. If you want to skip forward to my call, I am caller number 1 at 05:50:

Mirror (UK):
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Before the call I had plenty to say, but under pressure, live on air, with only a minute to talk, I don't think I got my point across as well as I could have, but it did make me think about how non-gamers perceive people who do enjoy experiencing and playing video games. I also wanted to tell Matthew (the host) to watch The Last of Us Part II trailer that was featured at the same gaming show in Paris, and is also a Sony exclusive title. I think that trailer has way more for the non-gaming masses to complain about, than the scenes from Detroit: Become Human. I've also been obliterating hundreds of Nazis with my Schockhammer in Wolfenstein 2 recently, literally blasting them into smithereens, but I've not seen that discussed on TV.

Obviously, this is a touchy subject matter, but in my eyes, it is no different than watching a movie or reading a book. The movie Sleepers immediately came to mind when I was trying to think of comparisons from other media, a 1996 film featuring some of hollywood's top stars suffering from child abuse. Why is that ok, but Detroit isn't?

It makes no sense.


Detroit: Become Human is expected to release worldwide in 2018.

Detroit: Become Human Official Site

 

[MartinDocNewland]

Here's a legitimate question. You've mentioned that you have Asperger Syndrome at least a couple of times now. What, if anything, does this have to do with the topic? Not to mention your IQ. It's not relevant to any aspect of the argument. I have a brother that has AS, and doesn't have this inclination to bring it up for next to no reason. All you've done is bring strong personal bias to the table. Which, in all honesty, does nothing for anyone.. Let alone yourself. Your arguments lack in terms of substance and it's rather off putting. Makes the whole thing boring.

That's the point. To me my opinion does have some substance and its the only way I feel I can put my point accross. Having a brother with AS you should understand that it can affect a person's social interaction, how they communicate, their interests and behaviour so telling me my arguemnt is boring you sort of tells me you don't understand me, your brother or any other suffer at all.

I do the best I can, sorry its not up to your high standerds

 

[Navonod]

i know that but some people this can be a very personal thing

So we should get rid of it because only a handful of people are deeply disturbed by it? Again don't buy it or look into anymore if it's that bad for you.

 

[Kioku]

look... I know this is a central topic and this is a very personal one for me... I think that it is a good thank the Alice or whatever her name is can be a hero but the main part of the story is disturbing and i don't really think this should be a video game

Let's be honest. Mindless killing... Strip clubs.. Sexual exploitation.. Explosions.. Reliving history in some sick and sadistic ways...

Don't get me wrong. It's sick. Child abuse, in any shape or form should never be taken lightly... but with everything that is wrong in the world being portrayed? If you're fighting for one, why not all of them?

 

[Dominator211]

Let's be honest. Mindless killing... Strip clubs.. Sexual exploitation.. Explosions.. Reliving history in some sick sadistic ways...

Don't get me wrong. It's sick. Child abuse, in any shape or form should never be taken lightly... but with everything that is wrong in the world being portrayed? If you're fighting for one, why not all of them?

very true but this topic in particular effects me a little more than the others

 

[Kioku]

That's the point. To me my opinion does have some substance and its the only way I feel I can put my point accross. Having a brother with AS you should understand that it can affect a person's social interaction, how they communicate, their interests and behaviour so telling me my arguemnt is boring you sort of tells me you don't understand me, your brother or any other suffer at all.

I do the best I can, sorry its not up to your high standerds

Okay, drop the attitude. I'm well aware of the adverse effect it has on social interaction. My brother has gotten in trouble for various things. What's funny is that his debating and arguments are more than personal experience on repeat. You're against this? Okay, great. You're subtly looking down on everyone that you reply to. Not sure if you're aware of this. Again, your IQ? Your educational background? Has nothing to do with the topic, and is just soft bragging.

 

[MartinDocNewland]

LOL. I read it as it is. You may have a high I.Q. But you're lacking in common sense.

Having an I.Q and common sense are differant things. Most Asperges suffers with a high I.Q don't have common sense. comes hand in hand sadly

 

[Fugelmir]

Focus on banning real world problems like genital mutilation before simulated harm

 

[Navonod]

Having an I.Q and common sense are differant things. Most Asperges suffers with a high I.Q don't have common sense. comes hand in hand sadly

Okay now your miss reading me. I knew that. lol. I'm not an idiot and now believe that you're I.Q. isn't as high as you claim.
I forgot you can't argue with people who have Asperger syndrome because you can't reason with them. They are "always right".

 

[MartinDocNewland]

Okay, drop the attitude. I'm well aware of the adverse effect it has on social interaction. My brother has gotten in trouble for various things. What's funny is that his debating and arguments are more than personal experience on repeat. You're against this? Okay, great. You're subtly looking down on everyone that you reply to. Not sure if you're aware of this. Again, your IQ? Your educational background? Has nothing to do with the topic, and is just soft bragging.

I understand you don't get it but no, this is how i am. Hope you understand that. I can't help it but please don't pick at my words. If you read what I put about why i explained about my I.Q then you would not be replying to me in the first place. Please keep up (can't help but look down on you now lol) Pick at that lol

 

[Navonod]

Focus on banning real world problems like genital mutilation before simulated harm

In that case I say let them do it. There are to many people on the planet anyway.

 

[MartinDocNewland]

Okay now your miss reading me. I knew that. lol. I'm not an idiot and now believe that you're I.Q. isn't as high as you claim.
I forgot you can't argue with people who have Asperger syndrome because you can't reason with them. They are "always right".

More like I can't argue for toss because of it and I do think your an idiot because of your views on Asperges suffers

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Where did you take that IQ test? Was it an online test? Did you take it many times? Albert Einstein's IQ was of 165. If your IQ was that high, you wouldn't even be here. Nobel Prize winners generally have that IQ. Are you a Nobel Prize winner? Because AFAIK, geniuses don't generally go boasting their IQs around.

No your right, we don't go boasting our I.Q but then again I'm sure i didn't

 

[Navonod]

More like I can't argue for toss because of it and I do think your an idiot because of your views on Asperges suffers

Okay Albert Einstein calm down before you hurt yourself. It's true though I know someone just like you in real life and refuse to be around him for this reason. They won't accept any other opinion but their own.

• limited or inappropriate social interactions
• "robotic" or repetitive speech
• challenges with nonverbal communication (gestures, facial expression, etc.) coupled with average to above average verbal skills
• tendency to discuss self rather than others
• inability to understand social/emotional issues or nonliteral phrases
• lack of eye contact or reciprocal conversation
• obsession with specific, often unusual, topics
• one-sided conversations
• awkward movements and/or mannerisms

Sounds like you to.

Edit: Some of these things.**

 

[MartinDocNewland]

LOL. I read it as it is. You may have a high I.Q. But you're lacking in common sense.

You are right, I do lack it a lot of the time like now. Regret having a say as it was pointless

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Okay Albert Einstein calm down before you hurt yourself. It's true though I know someone just like you in real life and refuse to be around him for this reason. They won't accept any other opinion but their own.

• limited or inappropriate social interactions
• "robotic" or repetitive speech
• challenges with nonverbal communication (gestures, facial expression, etc.) coupled with average to above average verbal skills
• tendency to discuss self rather than others
• inability to understand social/emotional issues or nonliteral phrases
• lack of eye contact or reciprocal conversation
• obsession with specific, often unusual, topics
• one-sided conversations
• awkward movements and/or mannerisms

Sounds like you to.

Edit: Some of these things.**

Yeah sounds like me but its not me. I don't want to get this wrong but i'm guessing that was a personal attack on your part?

 

[Beerus]

honestly the game look promising then u have people bashing the creativity of a developer saying thats fucked or whatever
if u dont like it dont play it its easy as 123

 

[FAST6191]

The only thing I disagree with (everything else you said is spot on) is the line "*a mere personal objection, which from what I have seen you post in thus far in thread is your entire position (and occasionally teetering on being an appeal to emotion), being able to be dismissed with the classic philosophical line "you can't always get what you want". is this line

Being a sufferer of Asperges with an I.Q of 154 (not boasting, just trying to make my point in the way I can) I do find it very hard to get my point across. Why am i telling you this? I'm telling you this because if you don't know, you don't know and what many people do is judge on what is said rather than knowing that person.

As I type this I see I have a 4 next to the bell so I can guess that someone will be nasty about what i have said. but what I have said comes from personal expericence.

"what many people do is judge on what is said rather than knowing that person"
Given this is a forum I do have to go on what is said. I will certainly try to read between the lines, and infer things, or try to figure out what the person is attempting to say if their words are failing them. To do otherwise would be to do a disservice to the discussion. Equally in most cases, this certainly being one and the exceptions mainly being time sensitive things, you are free to revise your opinions or state other things support of them and I will try to consider them if I am made aware of it. In the end though I still only have the words to go on.

Thus far you have not provided any objection beyond "it happened to me, waaa". I can't work with that. There is no legal basis for that, no sound ethical basis for that (at least not one going society wide), no immediately obvious pragmatic basis that I can see and indeed may be one of those slippery slopes -- "I have had a relationship go bad before, seeing similar on TV reminds me of that, therefore I don't want to see it and it should be banned" would be functionally equivalent from where I sit* and I can't imagine people would support such a call. If your argument is emotion and personal opinion I get to dismiss it, however I thought I would explore the matter at hand and while I would have done it without your posts being there your posts certainly did not hurt my willingness to type up that little wall there. If I missed a point of argument, fell short somewhere, or your position is different (mine was that society as a whole benefits from works of fiction covering all things, you might be of the opinion that those that suffered abuse might be damaged enough by the mere existence of a work like this that it should be prevented, by force of law (or maybe market pressure), from being distributed) then please elaborate. Otherwise you are going to be linked something like https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/659/03/ and then we stop having fun.

*actually maybe not as relationships, and failures thereof, are an expected part of life for many... replace that with mugging if you want. "I was mugged once and seeing it happen to someone on TV...".

"but what I have said comes from personal expericence"
OK. Tell me why it is relevant here? Going further you are in danger of appearing to suggest your opinion is somehow more valid by virtue of your past experiences here. If we were talking about developing a course of treatment for survivors then absolutely, here though you are another voice in the crowd (a notion several others before me in this thread have tried to put forward) and back to the thing from the start you are then only as good as the arguments you put forward.

As an aside I usually leave it unstated but might as well state it here.
For this sort of thing I generally don't preface these sorts of things with platitudes (I know child abuse sucks, stating as such feels redundant and I care little for huggy nonsense), my tone will tend to be blunt, somewhat aloof (I quoted a comedian when I ran into an awkward position which could have conflated abuse and sex, quite far from any notions of diplomatic phrasing) and at a casual scan maybe even appear disrespectful (it won't be but may appear as such to said scan) or tactless. This annoys some people, I consider that a good thing. All of that is very deliberate. I appear not to be the only one in this thread that employs such styles either.

Finally I see a third edit to your earlier reply.
" Would love to hear where you heard that. Sadly paedophiles come in all shapes and sizes using many differant methods so what you heard is wrong, trust me I know being on the reciving end "
dihydrogen monoxide = H2O = Water. Most people drink it. Also http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
It was a riff on the common moral panic thing we see where some drug dealer or kiddie fiddler is seen to use encryption, a proxy server, usenet, torrents... basically some well known protocol or service. Some idiot politician gets up on stage and then says "we need to ban said common thing used by millions and possibly even required for the modern world".

 

[Kioku]

Can we all agree that the last couple of pages have been wasted for no reason?

 

[rileysrjay]

Can we all agree that the last couple of pages have been wasted for no reason?

Agreed, the arguments have been going in circles for a while. Also iirc @MartinDocNewland said he was done arguing a couple pages back

 

[Kioku]

Agreed, the arguments have been going in circles for a while. Also iirc @MartinDocNewland said he was done arguing a couple pages back

Maybe that explains the redundancy?

 

[MartinDocNewland]

Agreed, the arguments have been going in circles for a while. Also iirc @MartinDocNewland said he was done arguing a couple pages back

I was but do I again explain myself? I'm sure you don't want me to lol

 

[FAST6191]

Indeed, I guess rather than awaiting someone to present some arguments then someone is going to have to play devil's advocate. Hard to do against free speech, with most of us "getting" games and also being something of such limited harm potential (from a numerical perspective anyway) but not impossible, and may yield an interesting exploration into the degrees of such things. I would but apparently it is 3am and my feeble body needs sleep.

Edit

I was but do I again explain myself? I'm sure you don't want me to lol

Please do. Thus far you have not provided a reason we can explore on why we should call for this game to be banned or otherwise prevented from going on sale.