In a very sudden development on the hot-button topic of 'loot boxes' and gambling in video games, the Belgium Gaming Commission has completed their investigation on the matter and have concluded that in-game 'loot boxes' are a form of gambling, and will likely be banned in Belgium. This could entail hundreds of thousands of Euros in fines towards Electronic Arts and other offending companies, as well as a ban on sales of games with loot boxes until companies acquire a gambling license or remove the feature from their games. What's more, Belgium is seeking to classify loot boxes as gambling across the entirety of Europe. Currently, the Dutch Gambling Authority has launched a similar investigation.

The Belgium Gaming Commission's statement roughly read, "The mixing of money and addiction is gambling." Belgium's Minister of Justice also chimed in, saying, "Mixing gambling and gaming, especially at a young age, is dangerous for the mental health of the child."

Following quickly after, and in a highly unexpected move, Hawaii House of Representatives rep. Chris Lee (D) held a press conference where he announced that the State of Hawaii would be introducing legislation to curb the "predatory behavior" of companies like Electronic Arts. He explicitly mentions Battlefront 2, calling it a "Star Wars-themed online casino, designed to lure kids into spending money." Highlights from that press conference can be seen here:



Lee said that new legislation in the coming year will target predatory microtransaction practices and that Hawaii would be speaking with other states to introduce similar legislation elsewhere in the United States. Parents also took the podium at the press conference to express their own concerns about loot boxes and microtransactions. Lee later wrote a Reddit post explaining the announcement, which can be read in its entirety by following this link. In the post, he calls on US citizens to contact their state legislatures and demand action against predatory microtransaction practices in the gaming industry.

The speed at which regulatory bodies are reacting to the loot box controversy is astounding. These developments come in the wake of EA's botched microtransaction scheme in Star Wars: Battlefront II that led to a Reddit post by an EA representative becoming the most downvoted comment in the website's history, prompting Disney to intervene and garnering mainstream media coverage on popular news outlets like CNN. This spells trouble not just for EA, but for all major publishers, including Activision-Blizzard, Ubisoft, 2K Games, and any other company engaging in 'loot box' practices and predatory microtransaction schemes.

Oh, how the tides turn.

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[Foxi4]

I could care less that they exist. The problem lies with how they are demarcated. If you have to pay *real* money for a randomized outcome, in any fashion, be it through a virtual currency that you can buy with real money, or directly with real money, it should be classified as gambling, and fall under that regulation. Currently, the industry as a whole is bypassing many of these restrictions by going through a virtual currency first. It's exactly like the pachinko parlors in Japan: I buy coins, then use those coins to play a game for tickets, then, because it's a different shop, I can go next door and buy things with those tickets without it being classified as gambling. Fuck, even claw machines have been regulated in many states, purely because of the random nature they exhibit.

Do I think they need to be banned? Absolutely not. Do I think they should be treated just like every other cash for random tat? Absolutely. This only makes sense. Do I have the ulterior motive of killing the practice? Damn straight I do.

If we go by that logic, blind bags are also gambling. The result isn't random - the result is an in-game item, this is the case 100% of the time, you can't win anything else. There's no magical way of buying loot boxes, opening them and getting money, which would classify as a form of gambling. If we do squint and pretend that it is gambling and that you are able to win anything of considerable real-life value, I still don't see a problem - gambling itself shouldn't be illegal because it's none of the government's business how I spend my money. I can buy a truck of candy with my paycheck if I want to, that's my business.

 

[kumikochan]

If we go by that loving blind bags are also gambling. The result isn't random - the result is an in-game item. There's no magical way of buying loot boxes, opening them and getting money, which would classify as a form of gambling. If we do squint and pretend that it is gambling and that you are able to win anything of considerable real-life value, I still don't see a problem - gambling itself should be illegal because it's none of the government's business how I spend my money. I can buy a truck of candy with my paycheck, that's my business.

that's your opinion tho and most think differently so. It still is a game of chance and a game of chance is addictive to minors. Gambling is all good and well if you're at a certain age but if you like it or not, games are played by minors while other forms off gambling can't be played at by minors. And i get your opinion but your opinion is selfish as an adult without the regard of others. It is not about regulating how you spend your money but about protecting the people who can't properly and if you think we don't need to do that just so we can spend OUR own money ourselves how we want then that is just plain selfish. actions have to be taken !

 

[Foxi4]

that's your opinion tho and most think differently so. It still is a game of chance and a game of chance is addictive to minors. Gambling is all good and well if you're at a certain age but if you like it or not, games are played by minors while other forms off gambling can't be played at by minors. And i get your opinion but your opinion is selfish as an adult without the regard of others

Thank God we have the government to protect children's income from scammers. Oh wait, children don't earn money, they can only be given money, at which point it's up to the guardian to ensure that they don't spend it on age-restricted items online. By the way, games of chance are not illegal, unless you want to argue that spin the bottle should be made illegal.

 

[kumikochan]

Thank God we have the government to protect children's income from scammers. Oh wait, children don't earn money, they can only be given money, at which point it's up to the guardian to ensure that they don't spend it on age-restricted items online.

ugh facepalm. ur missing the whole point

 

[Foxi4]

ugh facepalm. ur missing the whole point

No, I'm not - I get the point, the point is stupid. If I sit at the poker table, I bet money and I can win or lose money. When I buy a loot box, I spend money - that's it. I don't "win" anything back, it's a loss 100% of the time. You know what's in the loot box - a random in-game item. You know exactly what you're spending your money on, it's a consensual transaction.

 

[LunarQueen626]

No, I'm not - I get the point, the point is stupid. If I sit at the poker table, I bet money and I can win or lose money. When I buy a loot box, I spend money - that's it. I don't "win" anything back, it's a loss 100% of the time. You know what's in the loot box - a random in-game item. You know exactly what you're spending your money on, it's a consensual transaction.

Kids (and some adults) don't have their impulse control developed fully. This is just taking advantage of that...

How many cases of exorbitant mobile in-game purchases have been done by kids with their parent's phone because they HAVE to HAVE the rare magicalwhateverthing. If the kid has their parents' credit card on their console to buy games and stuff, it's too easy to buy things without keeping tabs on it.

 

[AbyssalMonkey]

Kids (and some adults) don't have their impulse control developed fully. This is just taking advantage of that...

How many cases of exorbitant mobile in-game purchases have been done by kids with their parent's phone because they HAVE to HAVE the rare magicalwhateverthing. If the kid has their parents' credit card on their console to buy games and stuff, it's too easy to buy things without keeping tabs on it.

Foxi is simply going to say: "Thats the fault of the parents", whcih I can agree too. However I also agree with the underlying reason of regulating for impulse control, the same exact reason why gambling is still regulated today.

 

[Joe88]

When I buy a loot box, I spend money - that's it. I don't "win" anything back, it's a loss 100% of the time. You know what's in the loot box - a random in-game item. You know exactly what you're spending your money on, it's a consensual transaction.

That's not exactly true, certain games have trading and a whole economy system to go along with it, and sites that will take said said virtual items and allow you to trade it in for real money.

 

[Foxi4]

Kids (and some adults) don't have their impulse control developed fully. This is just taking advantage of that...

How many cases of exorbitant mobile in-game purchases have been done by kids with their parent's phone because they HAVE to HAVE the rare magicalwhateverthing. If the kid has their parents' credit card on their console to buy games and stuff, it's too easy to buy things without keeping tabs on it.

So what if they don't? If we follow that mentality then we should ban commerce to protect people from "accidentally" buying a TV because it was on sale. If the parents are stupid enough to give their credit card details to a minor, they deserve everything that comes their way. It's not a deceptive form of sales, nobody is tricking anyone into spending money. In fact, you don't even have to spend any money - you can get the things in-game for free. Y'know what? I think we should ban all in-game containers. When I'm playing an RPG, I don't know what's inside a chest - maybe it's a useless item that I don't need and will have to dispose of? We should ban hidden enemies as well - I don't want to be tricked by walking into a room and getting flanked by an enemy I didn't know about. I paid good money for the game, I want a bland hallway with nothing in it. Let me win all fights while we're at it, I paid for the game, I should win all the time, that sounds like fun.

 

[LunarQueen626]

Foxi is simply going to say: "Thats the fault of the parents", whcih I can agree too. However I also agree with the underlying reason of regulating for impulse control, the same exact reason why gambling is still regulated today.

Agreed, like all problems...there is always more than one factor. Parents HAVE to regulate their children if they are given cc info for buying digital games, etc., but we can't deny the industry (*cough, cough* EA) has no shame in exploiting this.

 

[Foxi4]

That's not exactly true, certain games have trading and a whole economy system to go along with it, and sites that will take said said virtual items and allow you to trade it in for real money.

The sale of in-game items or accounts is explicitly forbidden on just about any network an is grounds for a permanent ban, it's a good way to lose your account.

Foxi is simply going to say: "Thats the fault of the parents", whcih I can agree too. However I also agree with the underlying reason of regulating for impulse control, the same exact reason why gambling is still regulated today.

It's regulated in the sense that only the government can do it. Nobody's pushing to ban national lotteries when they're no different than casinos. You don't even have to use your credit card for mobile purchases - kids should be given iTunes/Google, or PSN/Xbox/Nintendo scratch cards on consoles instead, every store recommends those in the event of a minor using a mobile device or console because it benefits stores.

 

[AbyssalMonkey]

If we go by that logic, blind bags are also gambling. The result isn't random - the result is an in-game item, this is the case 100% of the time, you can't win anything else. There's no magical way of buying loot boxes, opening them and getting money, which would classify as a form of gambling. If we do squint and pretend that it is gambling and that you are able to win anything of considerable real-life value, I still don't see a problem - gambling itself shouldn't be illegal because it's none of the government's business how I spend my money. I can buy a truck of candy with my paycheck if I want to, that's my business.

Foxi, here's the hangup though. Let's play Overwatch, and let's buy a lootbox when I already have 50% of the items. I spend virtual money to open a box, and I have duplicates of half the items, so they get turned back into the very currency I used to buy the box. Tell me this isn't gambling. You spend money, and you earn money back. This is exactly like slot machines with guaranteed returns, which ARE regulated. The only difference is the form of currency, a virtual one.

It's regulated in the sense that only the government can do it. Nobody's pushing to ban national lotteries when they're no different than casinos.

You are right, no one is seriously trying to ban national lotteries, but, at least in the states, they are regulated.

 

[LunarQueen626]

So what if they don't? If we follow that mentality then we should ban commerce to protect people from "accidentally" buying a TV because it was on sale. If the parents are stupid enough to give their credit card details to a minor, they deserve everything that comes their way. It's not a deceptive form of sales, nobody is tricking anyone into spending money. In fact, you don't even have to spend any money - you can get the things in-game for free. Y'know what? I think we should ban all in-game containers. When I'm playing an RPG, I don't know what's inside a chest - maybe it's a useless item that I don't need and will have to dispose of? We should ban hidden enemies as well - I don't want to be tricked by getting into a room and getting flanked by an enemy I didn't know about. I paid good money for the game, I want a bland hallway with nothing in it. Let me win all fights while we're at it, I paid for the game, I should win all the time, that sounds like fun.

If they do not (either kids or the adults), they can't be trusted to have credit cards, that much I can agree with you. It is part of what we usually call bad choices.

Also, not everything in-game is free nowadays. Just look at the any mobile game of your choosing and you'll find in-game items that are exclusive only if you pay. While the average person will shrug it off if they aren't too interested, the kid or adult with poor impulse skills will just start buying and buying to get things either done faster or to get rare items.

It isn't a matter of "tricking", it is just in-your-face advertising mixed with psychological factors to pressure the gamer to buy things and those that have issues with controlling themselves will spend a lot of money and not notice til it is a bit too late.

While marketing is just that, everything has a limit and that is why regulations exist in commerce and gambling.

 

[Foxi4]

Foxi, here's the hangup though. Let's play Overwatch, and let's buy a lootbox when I already have 50% of the items. I spend virtual money to open a box, and I have duplicates of half the items, so they get turned back into the very currency I used to buy the box. Tell me this isn't gambling. You spend money, and you earn money back. This is exactly like slot machines with guaranteed returns, which ARE regulated. The only difference is the form of currency, a virtual one.

So you didn't lose? Good, I was getting worried you got scammed.

Funnily enough, the introduction of loot boxes convinced me to return to playing Rainbow Six because I would never, under any circumstances, pay to get an in-game skin or in-game currency, I only did that once in an old MMO and I couldn't be bothered to do it again since I could get the same stuff by farming. Now I roll for Alpha Packs whenever I win a game and I have a bunch of cool skins that I would never have otherwise, so that's great.

You are right, no one is seriously trying to ban national lotteries, but, at least in the states, they are regulated.

I always find it amusing when the government regulates itself. They're the ones writing the rules in the first place, the benevolence surrounding the poor tax lottery is palpable.

If they do not (either kids or the adults), they can't be trusted to have credit cards, that much I can agree with you. It is part of what we usually call bad choices.

Also, not everything in-game is free nowadays. Just look at the any mobile game of your choosing and you'll find in-game items that are exclusive only if you pay. While the average person will shrug it off if they aren't too interested, the kid or adult with poor impulse skills will just start buying and buying to get things either done faster or to get rare items.

It isn't a matter of "tricking", it is just in-your-face advertising mixed with psychological factors to pressure the gamer to buy things and those that have issues with controlling themselves will spend a lot of money and not notice til it is a bit too late.

While marketing is just that, everything has a limit and that is why regulations exist in commerce and gambling.

Here I would like to point out that in many cases Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo/your bank will refund unauthorised transactions made with your credit or debit card, it happens all the time. If your kid goes on a shopping spree, there are mechanisms in place to dispute unauthorised purchases. Naturally such disputes are lengthy and your account is likely to be suspended during the investigation, but that's the price you pay for poor parenting. I don't see how this is any different from your kid logging onto your Amazon and buying an Xbox, or downright stealing money from your wallet. You failed at your job as a parent, try harder next time. You can't hold companies accountable for the actions of their customers, that's backwards and asinine. I'm certainly not a fan of random paid drops, in-game currencies or other such assorted nonsense, but I simultaneously don't think they should be illegal and I change the situation in the only reasonable way - by not buying such products. If I were to ban everything I don't like, I'd have to have most of you guys banned - you're driving me nuts sometimes, and I'm a cruel, mean man.

 

[LunarQueen626]

You can't hold companies accountable for the actions of their customers, that's backwards and asinine. I'm certainly not a fan of random paid drops, in-game currencies or other such assorted nonsense, but I simultaneously don't think they should be illegal and I change the situation in the only reasonable way - by not buying such products. If I were to ban everything I don't like, I'd have to have most of you guys banned - you're driving me nuts sometimes, and I'm a cruel, mean man.

No, but I sure as hell can hold them accountable when they make the situation so imbalanced that it is a pay-to-win game. I don't think it should be illegal, but I do believe that there should be a somewhat strict measurement of any sort in-game purchases for kid-focused games, which is probably is being worked on as we type. The rest of the games would be too complicated because the intended audiences are more mature, so less control needs to be applied.

Kek, admins or high powered members are always going to be driven nuts by most users.

 

[Foxi4]

No, but I sure as hell can hold them accountable when they make the situation so imbalanced that it is a pay-to-win game. I don't think it should be illegal, but I do believe that there should be a somewhat strict measurement of any sort in-game purchases for kid-focused games, which is probably is being worked on as we type. The rest of the games would be too complicated because the intended audiences are more mature, so less control needs to be applied.

Kek, admins or high powered members are always going to be driven nuts by most users.

The way I see it and have always seen it is that children have no money of their own, they can only be given money by adults, and if they're given free reign over said money then they can waste it. In fact, children waste 100% of the money they're given - there isn't a child on the planet who takes their birthday money and invests it in stocks or deposits it in a retirement plan or savings account, not unless they're coerced to save it, which defeats the point of the money being a gift in the first place. Pay to win sucks, that's why I don't play pay to win games - the new Star Wars is a massive bomb so far, even with in-game purchases completely disabled, so clearly the market has decided all by itself and there was no need for the sluggish decision of the government. The market reacts to bullshit instantaneously, I trust it more than I trust a bunch of guys in suits who haven't played a video game since Pong.

 

[LunarQueen626]

The way I see it and have always seen it is that children have no money of their own, they can only be given money by adults, and if they're given free reign over said money then they can waste it. In fact, children waste 100% of the money they're given - there isn't a child on the planet who takes their birthday money and invests it in stocks or deposits it in a retirement plan or savings account, not unless they're coerced to save it, which defeats the point of the money being a gift in the first place. Pay to win sucks, that's why I don't play pay to win games - the new Star Wars is a massive bomb so far, even with in-game purchases completely disabled, so clearly the market has decided all by itself and there was no need for the sluggish decision of the government. The market reacts to bullshit instantaneously, I trust it more than I trust a bunch of guys in suits who haven't played a video game since Pong.

Hear, hear. Best way to curb those games is to never touch them.

 

[Oleboy555]

WOW Belgium, great moves! Keep it up! Im proud of you!

On a more serious note, I think this is great and hopefully we can go back to the good old days without microtransactions and other shit like that.

 

[FAST6191]

The sale of in-game items or accounts is explicitly forbidden on just about any network an is grounds for a permanent ban, it's a good way to lose your account.

There are plenty of things banned from using real money as well, still happens though.

In the end I guess this is a philosophy on life and government though, that being the extent of what regulations a government may impose to restrict behaviours or indeed incentivise with other mechanisms. Going by previous posts would appear to have you skew far more towards minimal restrictions and incentives, others appear to care for more. A world in which personal responsibility and a commitment to rationality and logic meant something would be nice but I ain't seeing it happening any time soon -- hardcore psychological manipulation met marketing in the 1920s but has worked for thousands of years before then.

WOW Belgium, great moves! Keep it up! Im proud of you!

On a more serious note, I think this is great and hopefully we can go back to the good old days without microtransactions and other shit like that.

This does rather depend upon the quality of the resulting laws though. Sadly we have all too often seen nice intentions mask or result in crap laws.

Also good old days... I still treat arcades as the functional equivalent of microtransactions in many, if not most*, cases. I already mentioned a 2002 title http://www.gamerevolution.com/review/33249-i-lightning-bolt-your-order-of-leitbur-review with something unmistakeably similar (it is a computerised version of magic the gathering featuring online cards you buy), consoles got it https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2391284,00.asp in 2011 but for many years prior MS had used "Microsoft points" as an abstraction method and things like https://www.engadget.com/2009/01/22/underachievement-ea-selling-unlock-everything-dlc-for-skate-2/ saw single player game paid unlocks in January 2009 and there may be earlier. Throughout it all we were getting screwed over by DLC expansion packs and updates even tied to them (so many "Gold" editions fixing bugs not fixed in baseline). Japan pioneered the skylanders/amiibo model back in 2004 http://www.advanscene.com/html/Releases/dbreleases.php?id=1578 on the GBA . 2009 is when hats appeared in Team Fortress 2, however many MMOs had gone down such paths long before then. Pokemon had the dual versions thing at least as soon as it made it out of Japan. A lesser remembered example of something I at least want to consider as part of this is 1997's MOPy fish ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOPy_fish ), in it HP released a screensaver (it was the style at the time) which earned you points for printing and if you have ever played the HP ink buying game... While I am at it Flash games also went there quite early https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023967/The-Flash-Games . I want to have a little look into the PDA market as part of this, and possibly the J2ME one (though if the current mob did not study the ringtone/j2me market heavily before these pushes they went wrong somewhere).

*a few were time limited or round limited, contrast "kid, why not pump in another quarter for another life?".

Arcades never died here but I will go with the death of them in the US which was maybe the end of the SNES. The CP System II (the III never did much outside Japan) had a few things still coming out in the US in 1998 though (mainly street fighter versions and spinoffs), but call it 1996. That's a fairly small window even if I ignore the other crap.

 

[Deleted-355425]

Lol @ the gambling addicts rattling in this thread. Flush your money down the toilette you will get the same outcome.