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Do you believe Russia hacked the US election?

What do you think is really going on? Let's get a little political here.

I assume you've all heard of the recent Vermont power grid "hacking" story. A few days ago a Vermont utility company found a russian virus on some guy's computer and (part of) the press extrapolated the fact, turning it into a so-called proof of a Russian conspiracy to hack the US power grid... That title was a fucking clickbait, and I just knew it. But not just your average buzzshit clickbait, a serious fucking one this time. When you read the article it became clear: pure bullshit. No evidence whatsoever, all that happened is that they found a regular virus on a random guy's computer, which happens a million times a day everywhere in the world. A few hours later they retracted, a lot of other sites and agencies stated that there was no such thing as a power grid hack attempt. Those media outlets jumped to conclusions to serve their own agenda, it seems.

Now regarding the "hacking" of the US election. Several US government agencies are claiming it's real. Are we being lied to? Are the FBI and homeland security and others all following orders of a higher instance or do they have actual evidence?
So far, they haven't shared much with the general public. Last week they released a document, which I read, but if you read it too you will find that it's absolutely empty of evidence. All it states is "we found some IP addresses in the logs" and "we found a bit of code that was used before". That amounts to nothing at all.

So why do they keep going on about this?
Do you think these agencies have insights they cant share with the public? could they have informants within the russian goverment? that's one of the few things I can think of that they would never be able to reveal. Or maybe it is just more political bullshit... but what's the point? Trump will take office soon and all this Russia crap isn't working. Apparently Trump has something to say on the subject that he will reveal on tuesday or wednesday. I wonder what that may be.

d7e413a2ab0f4b30b7759b3064fd6b0b.jpg
 
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Saiyan Lusitano

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See the thing I don't get is how two independent federal agencies can say there's evidence of tampering. I mean, even if it's being overstated/misreported, there HAS to be truth to it, right?...

And yes, I've listened to the Veritas recording, I think it's pretty disguisting that CNN higher-ups are trying to control the narrative with no tangible proof. I could understand it if they had sources they want to keep secret, but this just makes it sound like it's for their own pockets
Russia has become the one-all-to-blame country when anything goes wrong and it works because people actually believe everything bad that happens is due to Russia. It would be funny if it weren't so bad.
 
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Foxi4

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@Foxi4 I really don't care what's done is done but if most people dont or even better cant vote it doesnt help either ;)

And to the topic i think "somebody" tampered with the election but thats far away from what the mainstream media is talking about right now.
The real issue imo is that someone like Trump just dont want to hear anything about it or then his hilarious twitter rants (going so far to fire people because of it).
Why not just get over it and its fine (except he may know something that doesn't let him look good in the public ^^) instead intervening.
I'm pretty sure that the people who can't "get over it" are starting riots, looting and burning buildings, and it's not the Trump crowd doing that. It's BLM and ANTIFA who cause trouble under the guise of equality, social justice and anti-fascism, and by discriminatory, unjust and fascistic means at that.
Russia has become the one-all-to-blame country when anything goes wrong and it works because people actually believe everything bad that happens is due to Russia. It would be funny if it weren't so bad.
It's the Red Scare Round 2, easy scapegoat to blame for all of their own fuckery.
 

nIxx

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Dont exaggerate. Where are these Riots now !? :P

Honestly most people dont even care ;) People have much more really personal problems as thinking about starting riots. We 1st World people still have it much better as many many other countries even if people here complain how everything sucks left and right ^^ Stuff like they take our jobs away, yeah right the jobs that many people dont even want to do but lets complain its to easy :D

And even if you think russia is the scapegoat now nobody can deny that something is not right in general with russia (im not talking about hacking or such things).
 
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the_randomizer

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I'm pretty sure that the people who can't "get over it" are starting riots, looting and burning buildings, and it's not the Trump crowd doing that. It's BLM and ANTIFA who cause trouble under the guise of equality, social justice and anti-fascism, and by discriminatory, unjust and fascistic means at that.
It's the Red Scare Round 2, easy scapegoat to blame for all of their own fuckery.

Groups like ANTIFA and other extremist riot groups can burn in hell for all I care. Unruly bastards, the lot of them.
 
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Foxi4

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Dont exaggerate. Where are these Riots now !? :P

Honestly most people dont even care ;) People have much more really personal problems as thinking about starting riots. We 1st people still have it much better as many many other countries even if people here complain how everything sucks left and right ^^ Stuff like they take our jobs away, yeah right the jobs that many people dont even want to do but lets complain :D
It's only been a month or two since Berkley, don't feign ignorance. As for Russia being suspicious, of course there's something wrong with it - it's ruled by an actual despot who changes the laws just to stay in power, with an active oligarchy structure and an influential mafia calling the shots. That's not democracy's fault though, it's the fault of socialism which got people used to the idea that bribery and connections are more important than the law and principle.

Just to drive the point of the majority versus the electoral college, there need to be protections against localised majorities speaking up against a more widespread population. If you're in a room with 10 other people and they start a vote to take all of your money because you have it and they don't, you vote against and they vote for, and then proceed to beat you up and take all of your money, that's a democratic result, but it doesn't make it right. If a white majority suddenly decides that they just want to kill all black people, that's democratic, which doesn't mean that it's not racist. The electoral college exists as a counterweight and protects the interests of the whole union so that no state with a particularly high population can throw its weight around, that's what differentiates a single country from a union of states with different interests, and it's necessary for such a union to exist.
 
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It's only been a month or two since Berkley, don't feign ignorance.
That wasnt a riot thought or ANTIFA or whatever ;) And since we are talking about the USA it's sadly something that can't happen anyway but thats another issue.
 
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That wasnt a riot thought or ANTIFA or whatever ;)
So when peaceful protesters are attacked by ANTIFA with bottles filled with fireworks and the situation escalates to such a point that both sides start showing up in protective gear and makeshift weapons in hand in the event of an inevitable brawl, that's not a riot? Okay.

Guys, this is how "not a riot" looks like:

pasted_image_at_2017_02_02_03_27_am.png berkeley_riot-1486069721-1414.jpg protest-01.jpg
 

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On protest anywhere you have some people that only attend protest or whatever to just create chaos.
So while im not a "fan" of the ANTIFA you should at least make a difference because not everybody agrees with people that use violence ;).
It's basically like saying Muslims want to kill everybody else or saying all republicans/liberals are bad people.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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Majority did when you remove the illegals. The thing is, it actually is a lot how trump said, there's a silent majority and a very vocal minority. Of course a vocal group also being the losers in the election is going to cause nothing but unending drama, even if it were instead under the best of circumstances.
I'm confused as to how anyone can even claim to know how many undocumented immigrants would have voted for what side, and why you think a significant amount of them are participating in current polls, since I was talking about approval ratings
 

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On protest anywhere you have some people that only attend protest or whatever to just create chaos.
So while im not a "fan" of the ANTIFA you should at least make a difference because not everybody agrees with people that use violence ;).
It's basically like saying Muslims want to kill everybody else.
Y'know what? When a group encourages people to dress up in black from head to toes in black, wear masks, throw explosives at people, beat them up and attack them with mace because they "disagree with them", that's fascism. The "not all Muslims" excuse doesn't fly here - ANTIFA exists *for the purposes of* causing chaos, and that's exactly what they do, so they're all bad. Dressing up their violence in a lofty statement of "opposing fascism" is no different than any other crime under the guise of good will.
 

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The whole point was not all ANTIFA people are like that or replace ANTIFA with any other group ;)
And their purpose when the "movement" started definitly wasnt to create chaos but some people like in every group someday think then maybe we dont go far enough.
 
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Foxi4

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The whole point was not all ANTIFA people are like that or replace ANTIFA with any other group ;)
I'm sure not all Nazis hated Jews, but they still shoved them into gas chambers for being Jews because an authority told them to do so, so they're all guilty. We went through this in Norymbourg - that defense doesn't fly.
 

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Oh boy.

The reason why the electoral college exists is because the United States is a union of multiple states with their own representatives and legislative power which govern themselves, overseen by a federal government which is elected by said states to oversee the union.
That's not the historical reason why the Electoral College exists. The Electoral College exists in part because slave states felt underrepresented otherwise.

The United States are not a democracy, they're a Republic.
No, the United States is a Democratic-Republic.
Edit: This also has no bearing on how the presidential election should work.

Just because the coastal states have a higher population doesn't mean that they get to choose what happens in mainland states.
Nobody's arguing that. What people are arguing is that, when it comes to a general election of the whole country, the only fair way to do it is a direct election. Nobody's vote should be worth more than another's.

Take a look at the election map:

You must be joking if you think it'd be even remotely fair for Clinton to take the win - she lost in a landslide.
Now you're just trying to be misleading, finding the map that best supports the idea that Trump won in a landslide. In reality, most of the counties on that map have relatively very few people, and to frame the election results that way is arbitrary. It also doesn't show what the margins of victory were. This map does a better job at showing the results of the election, including margin of victory and population:
countycart30701024.png
In reality, Clinton won the popular vote by nearly 2.9 million votes but lost the Electoral College because of an arbitrary group of about 191,000 voters.

I'm not arguing that Clinton should have won the election. We all knew the rules of the Electoral College, and I wouldn't favor changing the rules retroactively after the results. I am, however, arguing that the Electoral College should not exist. It disparages millions of voters, and it keeps millions more from participating in the process.
 
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Foxi4

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Oh boy.


That's not the historical reason why the Electoral College exists. The Electoral College exists in part because slave states felt underrepresented otherwise.


No, the United States is a Democratic-Republic.


Nobody's arguing that. What people are arguing is that, when it comes to a general election of the whole country, the only fair way to do it is a direct election. Nobody's vote should be worth more than another's.


Now you're just trying to be misleading, finding the map that best supports the idea that Trump won in a landslide. In reality, most of the counties on that map have relatively very few people, and to frame the election results that way is arbitrary. It also doesn't show what the margins of victory were. This map does a better job at showing the results of the election, including margin of victory and population:
countycart30701024.png
In reality, Clinton won the popular vote by nearly 2.9 million votes but lost the Electoral College because of an arbitrary group of about 191,000 voters.

I'm not arguing that Clinton should have won the election. We all knew the rules of the Electoral College, and I wouldn't favor changing the rules retroactively after the results. I am, however, arguing that the Electoral College should not exist. It disparages millions of voters, and it keeps millions more from participating in the process.
I picked the first election map by county that showed up on Google and wasn't in dogshit resolution, I've *never* seen the bizzare Picasso painting you're touting as evidence. If your only points are "muh slave states" and a gotcha of "it's not a Republic, it's a DEMOCRATIC Republic" then I'll end the exchange here because it has no substance.
 

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Oh boy.


That's not the historical reason why the Electoral College exists. The Electoral College exists in part because slave states felt underrepresented otherwise.


No, the United States is a Democratic-Republic.
Edit: This also has no bearing on how the presidential election should work.


Nobody's arguing that. What people are arguing is that, when it comes to a general election of the whole country, the only fair way to do it is a direct election. Nobody's vote should be worth more than another's.


Now you're just trying to be misleading, finding the map that best supports the idea that Trump won in a landslide. In reality, most of the counties on that map have relatively very few people, and to frame the election results that way is arbitrary. It also doesn't show what the margins of victory were. This map does a better job at showing the results of the election, including margin of victory and population:
countycart30701024.png
In reality, Clinton won the popular vote by nearly 2.9 million votes but lost the Electoral College because of an arbitrary group of about 191,000 voters.

I'm not arguing that Clinton should have won the election. We all knew the rules of the Electoral College, and I wouldn't favor changing the rules retroactively after the results. I am, however, arguing that the Electoral College should not exist. It disparages millions of voters, and it keeps millions more from participating in the process.
The legend returns! Good to see ya debating again friend!
 

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My view on it, I don't really think so, although it could've been possible. However, I do think most of Hillary's overvotes came from illegal aliens.
 

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I picked the first election map by county that showed up on Google and wasn't in dogshit resolution, I've *never* seen the bizzare Picasso painting you're touting as evidence. If your only points are "muh slave states" and a gotcha of "it's not a Republic, it's a DEMOCRATIC Republic" then I'll end the exchange here because it has no substance.
The "Picasso map" is meant to show (roughly) what individuals voted where, without gerrymandered districts influencing it

Edit: here
 
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