ROM Hack [Project] The Great Ace Attorney (Dai Gyakuten Saiban) Fan Translation

[linkenski]

Nobody except a tiny minority actually complained that AAI2's translation was misrepresenting the original story with its localizations.

As for this, you guys are doing awesome work, and just keep it up! If I had the time I would probably attempt to sign up as a proofreader or something. I previously moaned about the literal translation vs localization thing in a previous topic, but I realize that I was slightly mistaken. As BroBuzz says, it's no on/off switch. I literally thought it was going to be a translation where it was nearly just translated word for word, but from the very few sneak peaks I've seen, the text is very comprehensible to an english reader and flows super naturally, so I'm just happy now that I may get to play this game at some point

 

[Uwabami]

There's no such things as "US localizations", you have no idea what you're talking about. A localization is a localization, there's no such thing as country specific localizations when you're dealing with one language (outside of stuff like British/American spellings of words, which is an incredibly minor issue). All Ace Attorney games have had English language localizations, so long as you have a decent grasp of the English language (which you seem to have) you'll be getting the exact same experience regardless of your country.

Actually, this there is such a thing as a "US localization". Even a translation can't be exactly 1:1, because of proverbs or quirks in the source language that simply don't work in the target language. There is dispute in the translation world if replacing a proverb in the source language with something similar in the target language would count as "localization".

A localization means taking cultural concepts foreign in the target culture (not language!) and replacing it with a completely different thing, familiar to a broad audience there. Katie Tiedrich made a great comic illustrating the ridiculousness of some localizations here: http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?comic=120913

In my experience, most translators agreed that translation can include the replacement of proverbs by equivalents and that localization is mostly about cultural concepts and NOT language. Of course, other people disagree about the proverbs, but I think everyone agrees on the cultural concepts part.

So to take on the comics example, in a US localization, Sushi became Burgers, in a UK localization it might have become fish & chips - in Australia maybe a bread with Marmite.

This is what we usually mean when arguing about localization.

Edit: In a scientific translation, of course, you have to be exact and explain everything that might be foreign to the reader in lots and lots of footnotes.

 

[LegendaryPlayerFer]

You seem to have a misunderstanding in regards literal translations versus localizations. It's not a purely black and white thing, it's more like a scale. For example, the Persona games definitely lean more towards the literal-side of that scale, they use honorifics and keep a lot of Japanese-centric aspects because they expect their English audience (i.e. weebs) to be more familiar with Japanese culture than the average person. On the flip side, Ace Attorney has always sided heavily on the localization side of that scale and that has remained consistent throughout the entire series.

I recommend you read this blog post by the current localization director for Ace Attorney, sheds some light on the thought process that goes into localization and how much they actually change with the games
http://www.capcom-unity.com/zeroobjections/blog/2014/11/21/localization-and-ace-attorney



Who complained about the AAI2 fan translation? All I've ever seen was near universal praise from everybody, claiming that it was up-to-par, if not better, than an official Capcom translation.



There's no such things as "US localizations", you have no idea what you're talking about. A localization is a localization, there's no such thing as country specific localizations when you're dealing with one language (outside of stuff like British/American spellings of words, which is an incredibly minor issue). All Ace Attorney games have had English language localizations, so long as you have a decent grasp of the English language (which you seem to have) you'll be getting the exact same experience regardless of your country.

You are wrong. There are elements of US pop culture put in the localizations of AA games. Besides, most games do that, even going to great lenghts as changing the srory and characters, like Persona por the PSX, for example, and many many more. I don't want that. Why do I have to suffer that? Because you are a more powerful country? Because of the place I was born? I won't ever accept that, so, if there's a fan translation that can give me what I want, I'll embrace it. Let us have a piece of the pie once in a while, please. Thank you.

 

[xz11]

This will be our final statement on the matter of translation vs. localization. We will not make any further comments about this, for the time being.

To be clear, our fan translation will allow this game to be playable by anybody who knows English.
Anything else is extra and will be considered later.

Please realize we that have zero affiliations with Capcom and their Ace Attorney games, therefore we have no obligations to follow their methods.
We are well aware that localization and translations are not black and white.
We aren't aiming for either of the extremes. We are going to be less on the localization side, though.

There isn't even anything to complain about yet.
Once our first patch release is out into the public, then it would be sensible to start making critiques on the nature of our translation and the lack of localization.
We will then make changes if we deem them to be appropriate.
Until then, have patience.

Thank you.

 

[Uwabami]

You are wrong. There are elements of US pop culture put in the localizations of AA games. Besides, most games do that, even going to great lenghts as changing the srory and characters, like Persona por the PSX, for example, and many many more. I don't want that. Why do I have to suffer that? Because you are a more powerful country? Because of the place I was born? I won't ever accept that, so, if there's a fan translation that can give me what I want, I'll embrace it. Let us have a piece of the pie once in a while, please. Thank you.

While you are right about some of your examples, I think you're making it a little bit to much about cultural imperialism.

Yes it is annoying that most western translations are secondary translations from the US localization, but I'd say its the companies and consumers who don't value direct translations/localizations from the source language.

There have been some good exceptions: Nintendo of Europe did some direct localizations from the Japanese source without relying on the US localization (it was way better), but consumers didn't care, so they stopped.

You could see it the other way around: without the US localization, other western localizations would probably not exist.

Yes, including US-pop culture can make it difficult for people who do know English, but aren't that familiar with that particular pop culture. But it's better than having no localization in a widely spread western language at all, right?

In the end this is a individiual opinion: if you know a little about the source culture - you probably want a closer translation; if not - you'll want a localization, because it makes it easier for someone in your culture.

 

[c80n]

Why do people still complain about localization? you do realize the tools for modifying this game are out there right? you can localize it to your heart contents this instant.
Or, better yet, wait until the translation is over and maybe you can ask permission to do a localized version, and change it as you deem fit.

 

[SkittleDash]

Please realize we that have zero affiliations with Capcom and their Ace Attorney games

If you were though, then what the hell are you doing here? xD

 

[LegendaryPlayerFer]

While you are right about some of your examples, I think you're making it a little bit to much about cultural imperialism.

Yes it is annoying that most western translations are secondary translations from the US localization, but I'd say its the companies and consumers who don't value direct translations/localizations from the source language.

There have been some good exceptions: Nintendo of Europe did some direct localizations from the Japanese source without relying on the US localization (it was way better), but consumers didn't care, so they stopped.

You could see it the other way around: without the US localization, other western localizations would probably not exist.

Yes, including US-pop culture can make it difficult for people who do know English, but aren't that familiar with that particular pop culture. But it's better than having no localization in a widely spread western language at all, right?

In the end this is a individiual opinion: if you know a little about the source culture - you probably want a closer translation; if not - you'll want a localization, because it makes it easier for someone in your culture.

Yes, I agree with most of what you said, but I have another opinion on the matter: I believe that knowing or not knowing about the source culture is irrelevant, just because I believe localization is a wrong concept to begin with. It's through art (games are art, that's undeniable) that we learn about different cultures. If the cultural element of the game is lost in the localization, I believe most of the work is lost with it, in a great porcentage. I always want to learn about different cultures, even the US culture (provided the source material is from the US), that's the whole point. So I don't like when a product is changed and loses its essence, and that what's happens with localization. It's a form of imperialism, and I'm against any empire or whatever resembles one.

 

[Uwabami]

Yes, I agree with most of what you said, but I have another opinion on the matter: I believe that knowing or not knowing about the source culture is irrelevant, just because I believe localization is a wrong concept to begin with. It's through art (games are art, that's undeniable) that we learn about different cultures. If the cultural element of the game is lost in the localization, I believe most of the work is lost with it, in a great porcentage. I always want to learn about different cultures, even the US culture (provided the source material is from the US), that's the whole point. So I don't like when a product is changed and loses its essence, and that what's happens with localization. It's a form of imperialism, and I'm against any empire or whatever resembles one.

I get what you mean and I agree that some games are art. But most consumers just want to be entertained. They don't want long explainations and notes. As I already said a few posts ago: even close translations need to be changed slightly because there are things in languages you can't translate into another.

And Japanese has a lot of those things. I always struggle between accuracy and tangibility when I translate it.

And believe me: you wouldn't want a scientific translation in a game or a movie. Translation of entertainment is always a compromise.

 

[LegendaryPlayerFer]

I get what you mean and I agree that some games are art. But most consumers just want to be entertained. They don't want long explainations and notes. As I already said a few posts ago: even close translations need to be changed slightly because there are things in languages you can't translate into another.

And Japanese has a lot of those things. I always struggle between accuracy and tangibility when I translate it.

And believe me: you wouldn't want a scientific translation in a game or a movie. Translation of entertainment is always a compromise.

As you can see I speak more than one language, so you'd know I have a notion about translating. I don't agree at all with you in that matter. One thing is to adapt, and another completely different thing is localize. Localization is wrong, conceptually wrong, IMO.

 

[Uwabami]

As you can see I speak more than one language, so you'd know I have a notion about translating. I don't agree at all with you in that matter. One thing is to adapt, and another completely different thing is localize. Localization is wrong, conceptually wrong, IMO.

Actually, I didn't recommend one or the other, did I? I just said you wouldn't want a scientific translation, because that would mean extensive footnotes (more than those small annotations some fansubbers or scanslators do). There would be very few people actually prefering this (I would, but I know most people wouldn't).

If you'd like to discuss this further (I'm open to that) we could take this to PM or another thread, because as xz11 already stated, this translation will be close to the original - so no problem here, right? We shouldn't litter this thread any further...

 

[hackotedelaplaqu]

Xz11, can you pm me the problematic archive file you're looking textures in it?

 

[SoyAlexPop]

Xz11, can you pm me the problematic archive file you're looking textures in it?

We already got them, thank you tho

 

[mutinize]

This will be our final statement on the matter of translation vs. localization. We will not make any further comments about this, for the time being.

To be clear, our fan translation will allow this game to be playable by anybody who knows English.
Anything else is extra and will be considered later.

Please realize we that have zero affiliations with Capcom and their Ace Attorney games, therefore we have no obligations to follow their methods.
We are well aware that localization and translations are not black and white.
We aren't aiming for either of the extremes. We are going to be less on the localization side, though.

There isn't even anything to complain about yet.
Once our first patch release is out into the public, then it would be sensible to start making critiques on the nature of our translation and the lack of localization.
We will then make changes if we deem them to be appropriate.
Until then, have patience.

Thank you.

Ignore him, most people are just happy to be able to play it. Thank you for translating the game.

 

[LegendaryPlayerFer]

Actually, I didn't recommend one or the other, did I? I just said you wouldn't want a scientific translation, because that would mean extensive footnotes (more than those small annotations some fansubbers or scanslators do). There would be very few people actually prefering this (I would, but I know most people wouldn't).

If you'd like to discuss this further (I'm open to that) we could take this to PM or another thread, because as xz11 already stated, this translation will be close to the original - so no problem here, right? We shouldn't litter this thread any further...

Of course, of course. I was just small talking. I'm really happy with what the team is achieving, and I expect great results ^-^

 

[BroBuzz]

You are wrong. There are elements of US pop culture put in the localizations of AA games.

So? They're replacing the Japanese pop-culture references with American ones, and the primary market for the English version of the game is North America. Would you rather they keep the original Japanese pop-culture references instead, even though 99% of the reader base would completely fail to understand them? Not to mention the vast majority of pop-culture references in English localizations aren't exclusively American, they're stuff any English reader can pick up on.

Besides, most games do that, even going to great lenghts as changing the srory and characters, like Persona por the PSX, for example, and many many more. I don't want that.

Nobody does. The original English version of Persona 1 is widely regarded as absolutely terrible and inferior to the properly localized PSP remake. If you want another example just look at the negative reception Nintendo has gotten recently to censoring some of their games when they localize them, nobody wants localizations to drastically alter games nowadays.

Why do I have to suffer that? Because you are a more powerful country? Because of the place I was born? I won't ever accept that, so, if there's a fan translation that can give me what I want, I'll embrace it. Let us have a piece of the pie once in a while, please. Thank you.

Why are you making this be about imperialism? I hope you aren't that triggered when you see a pop-culture reference in a video game, considering how insignificant they are.

Yes, I agree with most of what you said, but I have another opinion on the matter: I believe that knowing or not knowing about the source culture is irrelevant, just because I believe localization is a wrong concept to begin with. It's through art (games are art, that's undeniable) that we learn about different cultures. If the cultural element of the game is lost in the localization, I believe most of the work is lost with it, in a great porcentage. I always want to learn about different cultures, even the US culture (provided the source material is from the US), that's the whole point. So I don't like when a product is changed and loses its essence, and that what's happens with localization. It's a form of imperialism, and I'm against any empire or whatever resembles one.

As you can see I speak more than one language, so you'd know I have a notion about translating. I don't agree at all with you in that matter. One thing is to adapt, and another completely different thing is localize. Localization is wrong, conceptually wrong, IMO.

You have no idea what you're talking about. The goal of any good localization is to properly convey the experience a reader has in the original language into a different language & culture. Like Uwabami said, taking a concept foreign in the target culture and replacing it with an equivalent. For instance, a Japanese joke that would fall flat to an English reader should be localized into a similar English joke. Or this instance from AA3 where Pearl mistakes the Kanji for "splendid" with the Kanji for "curry" and then proceeds to spill curry all over a wall scroll. Obviously that doesn't work in English, so instead they had to changed the instructions to include the word "Gravely", which Pearl takes literally and is the reason there's a bunch of gravy on the wall scroll in the English version. That's proper localization. Ace Attorney itself probably took it a bit too far when they changed the entire setting to LA, but it's too late to change it and now it's become a part of the series that people embrace. It's not a huge deal regardless.

 

[Uwabami]

So? They're replacing the Japanese pop-culture references with American ones, and the primary market for the English version of the game is North America. Would you rather they keep the original Japanese pop-culture references instead, even though 99% of the reader base would completely fail to understand them? Not to mention the vast majority of pop-culture references in English localizations aren't exclusively American, they're stuff any English reader can pick up on.


Nobody does. The original English version of Persona 1 is widely regarded as absolutely terrible and inferior to the properly localized PSP remake. If you want another example just look at the negative reception Nintendo has gotten recently to censoring some of their games when they localize them, nobody wants localizations to drastically alter games nowadays.


Why are you making this be about imperialism? I hope you aren't that triggered when you see a pop-culture reference in a video game, considering how insignificant they are.



You have no idea what you're talking about. The goal of any good localization is to properly convey the experience a reader has in the original language into a different language & culture. Like Uwabami said, taking a concept foreign in the target culture and replacing it with an equivalent. For instance, a Japanese joke that would fall flat to an English reader should be localized into a similar English joke. Or this instance from AA3 where Pearl mistakes the Kanji for "splendid" with the Kanji for "curry" and then proceeds to spill curry all over a wall scroll. Obviously that doesn't work in English, so instead they had to changed the instructions to include the word "Gravely", which Pearl takes literally and is the reason there's a bunch of gravy on the wall scroll in the English version. That's proper localization. Ace Attorney itself probably took it a bit too far when they changed the entire setting to LA, but it's too late to change it and now it's become a part of the series that people embrace. It's not a huge deal regardless.

While I do agree with most things you said (and I especially liked your example from AA3 which I had already forgotten), I have to disagree on the pop-culture thing. As a US American, you probably have a hard time relating, but even though most people from other countries know some pop-culture references through Hollywood and Music, there's a lot that people outside the US wouldn't know.

As you yourself stated, localizations were more drastic in the past. I remember wondering about German pop-culture references in ALF (the alien) as a child until I found out about localizations. Another example is lost connections. I really liked some SNL movies (yeah, I know, but I still like them) like Blues Brothers and Wayne's World without knowing they're connected by originating from the same television show. I only learned this when I started taking an interest in US pop-culture.

Outside the US, only few people know about the Daily Show, SNL, E.T., Celebrity Roasts or minor celebrities on TV alone - they do appear more often now, but (at least in my country) very few people know about them. Before the movie, virtually no-one I know besides me knew Deadpool, because most of DC and Marvel are rarely published here.

And even if you somehow know about the referenced work, it's possible you've never paid close enough attention to it to "get it". For example: without trying to toot my own horn, I believe I can say my knowledge of US pop-culture and grasp of English is above average in my country, but I still don't pay attention to every english song's text to completely grasp it. I can't help it if it is in my native language, because this happens automatically. So I didn't get the "get all the boys to the yeard" reference in AA3. This is probably what LegendaryPlayerFer means.

And you don't acquire that knowledge by simply learning English.

 

[Jonesy47]

So? They're replacing the Japanese pop-culture references with American ones, and the primary market for the English version of the game is North America. Would you rather they keep the original Japanese pop-culture references instead, even though 99% of the reader base would completely fail to understand them? Not to mention the vast majority of pop-culture references in English localizations aren't exclusively American, they're stuff any English reader can pick up on.


Nobody does. The original English version of Persona 1 is widely regarded as absolutely terrible and inferior to the properly localized PSP remake. If you want another example just look at the negative reception Nintendo has gotten recently to censoring some of their games when they localize them, nobody wants localizations to drastically alter games nowadays.


Why are you making this be about imperialism? I hope you aren't that triggered when you see a pop-culture reference in a video game, considering how insignificant they are.



You have no idea what you're talking about. The goal of any good localization is to properly convey the experience a reader has in the original language into a different language & culture. Like Uwabami said, taking a concept foreign in the target culture and replacing it with an equivalent. For instance, a Japanese joke that would fall flat to an English reader should be localized into a similar English joke. Or this instance from AA3 where Pearl mistakes the Kanji for "splendid" with the Kanji for "curry" and then proceeds to spill curry all over a wall scroll. Obviously that doesn't work in English, so instead they had to changed the instructions to include the word "Gravely", which Pearl takes literally and is the reason there's a bunch of gravy on the wall scroll in the English version. That's proper localization. Ace Attorney itself probably took it a bit too far when they changed the entire setting to LA, but it's too late to change it and now it's become a part of the series that people embrace. It's not a huge deal regardless.

I've been reading your "opinions" for a few pages now and yeah, obviously, the people working on this project don't agree with you (or at least focusing on localization as a first priority). It is also obvious at this point that no amount of times you regurgitate the same reasons over and over again for localization is going to change their mind. If you don't like it, as has been previously mentioned, you can learn to romhack/translate/localize on your own, to your heart's content, in the manner YOU see fit but you don't seem to understand that the people actually doing the work on this do not agree with you. Also realize that, by constantly trying to talk the patch makers into your way of thinking, at best, you're wasting time and bogging up the thread with pages of nonsense when it should be related to the project progress, and at worst, possibly pissing off the only people capable of making this game playable in any English form, localized or not.
Anyways, this is just my outside opinion on your behavior in this thread. Either way, i hope you enjoy the finished patch, whether or not it's EXACTLY the way you want it or not.

 

[LegendaryPlayerFer]

While I do agree with most things you said (and I especially liked your example from AA3 which I had already forgotten), I have to disagree on the pop-culture thing. As a US American, you probably have a hard time relating, but even though most people from other countries know some pop-culture references through Hollywood and Music, there's a lot that people outside the US wouldn't know.

As you yourself stated, localizations were more drastic in the past. I remember wondering about German pop-culture references in ALF (the alien) as a child until I found out about localizations. Another example is lost connections. I really liked some SNL movies (yeah, I know, but I still like them) like Blues Brothers and Wayne's World without knowing they're connected by originating from the same television show. I only learned this when I started taking an interest in US pop-culture.

Outside the US, only few people know about the Daily Show, SNL, E.T., Celebrity Roasts or minor celebrities on TV alone - they do appear more often now, but (at least in my country) very few people know about them. Before the movie, virtually no-one I know besides me knew Deadpool, because most of DC and Marvel are rarely published here.

And even if you somehow know about the referenced work, it's possible you've never paid close enough attention to it to "get it". For example: without trying to toot my own horn, I believe I can say my knowledge of US pop-culture and grasp of English is above average in my country, but I still don't pay attention to every english song's text to completely grasp it. I can't help it if it is in my native language, because this happens automatically. So I didn't get the "get all the boys to the yeard" reference in AA3. This is probably what LegendaryPlayerFer means.

And you don't acquire that knowledge by simply learning English.

I will only answer this to you and end it here, because this post is going to hell: in order to understand localizations, I had to learn about a foreign culture,which is, the US culture. It wasn't that hard, and that's the whole point. If I could learn about your culture, why can't you learn about others? Why do companies have to localize everything? Don't you see you are being treated as stupids by them? We are humans, we are supposed to have empathy and the ability to put ourselves in another's place, so, why do you insist on twisting the world to your vision, as if it that was the absolute truth? You would do well in learning from other cultures and perhaps your society's mindset would change regarding some matters.

 

[Lycan911]

Could you guys stop with the localization vs. translation shitposts? Seriously, stop clogging the thread and let the people on the project breathe.