3rd Wave Feminism

[XDel]

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this whole "women's lib" movement. I understand the right to vote, and the right to equal pay (presuming the work is equal), and all that political non-sense that should have been done in the beginning, but this whole 3rd wave feminism really boggles my mind.
Not only did it & the proceeding 2nd wave emerge at the most pretentious and asenine of times by rising up as the last of the native tribes fell (and remaining TOTALLY silent about it), but it also developed a rebellion against the first wave of feminism, as well as women them selves on a whole.

Like affirmative action, it wreaks entitlement and has pushed towards another extreme in inequality and seems determined to not find balance with the male, but to undermine the male and replace him in positions of power, influence, and rank. Further more, many anti-male myths were born with the 3rd wave movement, as well as many myths about the female, and her natural role in the female and in relation to her male counter part. Further more, even more myths were generated about the proverbial "good house wife" and the patriarchal family unit, which btw, seemed to be the only thing that kept the natives going during their final days, and the only thing that kept the ex-slaves and their descendants together while they were ostracized by the rest of society, though it was rare for a feminist to try to bring any light to their plight, I guess it was unimportant?

To take things a step further, the 3rd wave feminists seem bent on generalizing all or most males as openly chauvinistic, violent towards females, unfaithful, and closed minded, unsympathetic megalomaniacs by nature, or passive aggressive at best. In other words,"his dark side will come out eventually". Heck even on Oprah and Dr. Phil they ran a theme one week stating that all males will cheat, and that the best solution, at least according to Oprah, would be to get a female friend to take home and share him with so he'll remain faithful.

Anyhow, whist wearing a smile, and ensuring you that their life is totally functional, tragedy free, and healthy, they discourage the rising to balance and expression of what is feminine, and instead opt to adopt the worst extreme in male behavior that they claim they stand apposed to and offended by.

Man cheats, and lives a promiscuous life be it secret or openly. = I too shall cheat, perhaps partner with another woman as a surrogate male, and become promiscuous as well. Sex and the Single Girl anyone? How about Sex in the City?

Of course the consequences of promiscuity are rare brought up, but rather single motherhood is presented as a noble and honorable thing. Never mind the effects it can have on the kids. Not saying it can't work, but it's a struggle, and single parents should be grateful that we have such things as state aid and what have you for those having a hard time finding work and making ends meet. Without such options, I wonder if single women would live the promiscuous life style so freely, further more, without abortion options, I wonder again how many women would still opt for that life style.

Ironically abortion too seems to be high in importance in relation to the 3rd wave feminist movement. It won't cloth those without cloths, it won't return jobs from across seas, provide houses for the house-less, food for the hungry, community elected books for the schools, and so forth, but boy is it an important issue; well because you might get raped by a male, fall in a puddle of semen, or well, you know, IT might stand in the way of your ambition.

Objectificaition is a big NO NO, if a male objectifies you and says "degrading" things about your person, well then, you can turn them into the thought police, have them tried for free, though uncouth, speech, given some sort of court ordered punishment for a hate crime, and possibly ruin his life and career within the media. Though ironically, women are allowed to openly objectify all they want within society, in fact the 3rd waveists encourage this once again with pornographic language and imagining amongst them selves and even at work.
I've heard it and dealt with plenty, and have even worked in work places where at least 80% or more of the women conduct them selves in this manner, but a male looses his job because he joined in on the "fun". I guess because males would really act on it and females would not?!?

I could go on with this point, but just imagine every male chauvinist, and apply it to women. It is the emasculation of men, and the rise of womb men, especially in positions of influence and power. Many work places now have to hire so many "minorities", but also a certain number of females, and some times a very low count in males, especially it seems in the health field. In fact a couple of my past female bosses verified this fact.
As for the shallow beauty standards that women aspire to live up to and in many cases have a hard time avoiding when shopping for clothing, these standards are generally set not by males, but again by females, yet the male takes the wrap for the scantly fashion selection at the local shopping centers.

And isn't it IRONIC that the 2nd and 3rd wave feminists arose and seemed to have an infinite well of resources, funding, time, and media coverage at a time when there was not massive out cry for women and by society in general for such a movement and "revolution".
Tis really interesting when you follow the money, or a take a look at some of the tell-lie-vision programming that slowly and subversively began to spread across the land scape (and all the way to religious Islam in Egypt in the 60's), and over time, sneaking in nuggets of descend and indoctrination to new mind sets driven by envy, anger, hate, greed, lust, and other such passions that can and have been been used to evoke and manipulate people on a large scale in a new direction, maybe not for something they ever imagined or thought they would need before, but by God they sure seem to think they need it now, again, regardless if it will not feed the hungry, cloth the clothless, heal the sick, or bring quiet to troubled minds.
There's a poison going on.

I had some other points I wanted to make, but alas I'm growing tired and I would really like to shut my brain down at this point, if not sedate it somehow. I needs my sleep!

Much love to all the people out there who don't require me to express the obvious to such a "long winded" manner. I know you're aspiring against the odds to keep things real.

 

[Ericthegreat]

You should at least provided a link to 3rd wave feminist movement related stuff. On certain jobs like teaching, desk jobs ect, I feel that women should be paid equally. But on work at construction sites ect many (not all) women have limitations.

 

[emigre]

Personally I get round these issues by telling girls to shut up and go make me a sandwich.

 

[Veho]

Yes yes yes, evil nu-feminist nazis will subjugate and castrate us all. It is imperative that we stop them.

Spoiler

 

[Gahars]

All people should be treated fairly and equally, and judged by the basis of their character, not their gender, skin color, etc.

There, done, bam. We can call it a day.

 

[Wolvenreign]

I think this quote from Jacque Fresco is particularly poignant.

"There are no n**** problems, or Polish problems, or Jewish problems, or Greek problems, or women's problems; there are only human problems."

 

[DinohScene]

All people should be treated fairly and equally, and judged by the basis of their character, not their gender, skin color, etc.

There, done, bam. We can call it a day.

I completely agree with that.
Saves another headache.

 

[Chary]

Our world isn't perfect. Heck, look at how long it took to abolish slavery! Things like this need time to be refined into a fair and balanced way. You can't just expect womens' rights to be perfect right off the bat. It SHOULD be, but sadly, we're in a world where some women see a loophole and as a way to abuse the "system".

 

[Nathan Drake]

Honestly, I think it's really easy to brush this aside or blindly agree with the ideas of 3rd wave feminism if you don't have to be around it personally. It actually is one hell of a mess, and I'm coming to hate a number of things about it. To give some background, I go to a liberal arts college. I'm pretty much in the land of "let's push for equality and understanding in all aspects!" You know, I'm entirely okay with that. I would see it as a problem if someone wasn't. 3rd wave feminism has taken a strong hold at this school though, especially among the girls I have found myself primarily associating with. To give some idea:

- We've had two feminist productions this year: The Vagina Monologues and The F Word. These had a profound affect, and actually was a primary reason that my roommate lost his last girlfriend.
- We've had various sexual assault movements that really just focused entirely on women and the plight that women face, ignoring the fact that men can be and are victims of sexual assault. Very few items are even remotely geared towards men, which push many men away from participation in general, further pushing problems that men do actually face into the background.

This has turned some moderate feminists, such as a girl I was at one time pursuing, into absolutely awful people to try to deal with. This girl in particular, before, I had called her beautiful, complimented who she was, her personality as a whole. Hell, I called her perfect. Then, one night, we went to see a live performance of Rocky Horror, and she had to do a devirginization thing that was fairly sexual in nature, as is normal for the shows. I dared to comment on how sexy it was to watch, and suddenly my flirting with her was entirely objectification. She had managed to take everything I had said in the past, and bundled it into objectifying her. She didn't used to act this way until these feminist productions happened (especially The Vagina Monologues) that pushed ideas of 3rd wave feminism so hard that I barely even talk to her anymore. It has turned her and many other women on campus from those just seeking basic equality in the handful of fields where it isn't found at this point, into those seeking to replace men as the dominant gender. We've moved from problem solving into future problem making. Feminism is becoming closer and closer to the idea of a femi-nazi, not to the extreme of castration of course, but to the point where one wrong word gets you berated and attacked. They essentially see it as their right to verbally strip you of your manhood if you say one cross word they don't agree with.

Modern feminism is really a mess. If what's happening at my school is anything like what's happening all over the country, then I sure hope that we see more moderate 4th wave feminism before too horribly long.

 

[The Milkman]

The problem here is that certain people feel that 'minorities' dont deserve equality, they deserve superiority, a more or less good example would be Bioshock Infinites Columbia, the Vox Populi ran around the streets blowing up shit in the name of equality, the second they get guns, they go batshit and take over all of Columbia becoming the very monster they fought. While I dont really like giving a game as an example, it does illustrate my point, people arent always content with equal, they want better and feel the best way to do this is to find any little shit they can and blow it out of proportion.

It can be seen in almost ANY movement to equality, I know black people who flat out say Obama is the best president because hes black, or gays who feel they need a gay version of everything. Feminists are just another group like this, I support things like equal rights and pay, and im not saying ALL people of respective groups are like this, but people who are need to learn equality isnt just political talk for "better", its fucking equality, something that I feel is a luxury people are too quick to abuse.

 

[Foxi4]

I'm just going to drop this here because it's hilariously accurate:

Spoiler

As for my approach towards feminism, I'm all for equality, but equality entails that you forfeit your claims to any benefits you received simply for being a woman in favour of equal treatment - you cannot have both.

The way I see it, there's nothing wrong in being treated differently in different aspects of life because, drumroll - we are different and we have to deal with that. Now, this doesn't mean that we should treat each other in a manner that infringes upon any of our rights or that either side of the argument should be dominant over the other - it merely means that equality should lead to equal opportunities, not exactly equal treatment. A gentleman should give his seat to a pregnant lady on the bus but vice versa, a lady should give her seat to an elderly gentleman and so on and so forth.

Life would be so much simpler if we stoped deliberating so much on who's the dominant sex and why and just focused on being decent human beings.

 

[The Milkman]

I'm just going to drop this here because it's hilariously accurate:

Spoiler

As for my approach towards feminism, I'm all for equality, but equality entails that you forfeit your claims to any benefits you received simply for being a woman in favour of equal treatment - you cannot have both.

The way I see it, there's nothing wrong in being treated differently in different aspects of life because, drumroll - we are different and we have to deal with that. Now, this doesn't mean that we should treat each other in a manner that infringes upon any of our rights or that either side of the argument should be dominant over the other - it merely means that equality should lead to equal opportunities, not exactly equal treatment. A gentleman should give his seat to a pregnant lady on the bus but vice versa, a lady should give her seat to an elderly gentleman and so on and so forth.

Life would be so much simpler if we stoped deliberating so much on who's the dominant sex and why and just focused on being decent human beings.

Exactly, we all know were not entirely equal, men are naturally oriented to compete and fight, while women can be much more caring and compassionate towards their young then men. It doesnt mean women are better or worse, it just means were not faceless blobs that produce asexually.

 

[Gahars]

Exactly, we all know were not entirely equal, men are naturally oriented to compete and fight, while women can be much more caring and morally forward then men. It doesnt mean women are better or worse, it just means were not faceless blobs that produce asexually.

Eh, that's... questionable.

 

[Foxi4]

Eh, that's... questionable.

Considering the sheer amount of spider assassination requests I've recieved from my girlfriend over the years, I must side with Gahars here.

Poor, innocent creatures - if not for them, we'd all perish in a sea of flies...

But alas, as a man I must act, roll up the newspaper or grab the slipper... and perform my duty as knight protector...

 

[Nathan Drake]

Eh, that's... questionable.

That isn't just questionable; it's actually sexism, though unintended. Men and women were categorized based on generic traits, which is exactly why feminism exists to begin with. There are plenty of women that could and would willingly kick my ass in a fight, just like there are men far more in tune with their emotions than many women. Being a specific gender doesn't actually imply anything but the genitalia you carry, and even then, transgender individuals challenge that everyday with the idea that gender is entirely a construct of society and the mind, an entirely flexible label.

Anything to do with gender is a real mess. It's always best just to avoid generalizing to avoid the transgender debate as a whole.

 

[Foxi4]

That isn't just questionable; it's actually sexism, though unintended. Men and women were categorized based on generic traits, which is exactly why feminism exists to begin with. There are plenty of women that could and would willingly kick my ass in a fight, just like there are men far more in tune with their emotions than many women. Being a specific gender doesn't actually imply anything but the genitalia you carry, and even then, transgender individuals challenge that everyday with the idea that gender is entirely a construct of society and the mind, an entirely flexible label.

Anything to do with gender is a real mess. It's always best just to avoid generalizing to avoid the transgender debate as a whole.

But that's a fallacy - both genders have specific inclinations towards various traits derrived from their natural hormonal balance - saying otherwise for the sake of political correctness is silly. There are exceptions from rules, yes, but we're talking about a general trend here - it's all statistics.

*cue statistics-shmatistics joke a'la Gahars *

 

[The Milkman]

Considering the sheer amount of spider assassination requests I've recieved from my girlfriend over the years, I must side with Gahars here.

Poor, innocent creatures - if not for them, we'd all perish in a sea of flies...

But alas, as a man I must act, roll up the newspaper or grab the slipper... and perform my duty as knight protector...

Good point

 

[Nathan Drake]

But that's a fallacy - both genders have specific inclinations towards various traits derrived from their natural hormonal balance - saying otherwise for the sake of political correctness is silly. There are exceptions from rules, yes, but we're talking about a general trend here - it's all statistics.

*cue statistics-shmatistics joke a'la Gahars *

I'll just skip the large spiel and say that any kind of statistics based around gender would never be able to handle the scope of humanity and the variation contained within as we know it now. Any numbers you could present would be entirely worthless.

Just to note, I'm not arguing things such as men being more inclined to have a higher upper body strength or silly things like that, but things such as that are entirely arbitrary in an equality debate.

 

[Foxi4]

I'll just skip the large spiel and say that any kind of statistics based around gender would never be able to handle the scope of humanity and the variation contained within as we know it now. Any numbers you could present would be entirely worthless.

Just to note, I'm not arguing things such as men being more inclined to have a higher upper body strength or silly things like that, but things such as that are entirely arbitrary in an equality debate.

There are good reason why the great majority of civilizations put men in the role of the hunters, just as much as there are reason why the lioness hunts and the lion protects their territory. As I said earlier, you can dismiss this for the sake of political correctness, but it doesn't make the statement any less true. This by no means entails dominance of either side as both sides are equally necessary and important, but the "scope of humanity and its variations" speaks againts your claim so far.

Of course humans are a higher-level mammals than felines - we have to be additionally concerned about the issues of culture and its impact of gender roles, but that's not what I was arguing - what I was arguing was that there are certain genetical patterns that define us as masculine or feminine and to an extent determine some of our traits, both physical and mental.

I'd also like to add that unlike with lower-level animals, our gender roles are not set in stone due to our intelligence - we may strive to achieve goals which are difficult for us for various reasons. That said, we do have do inclinations or talents - certain things come easy to some people, more difficult to others and all that is mostly in our genes.

 

[Nathan Drake]

There are good reason why the great majority of civilizations put men in the role of the hunters, just as much as there's a reason why the lioness hunts and the lion protects its territory. As I said earlier, you can dismiss this for the sake of political correctness, but it doesn't make the statement any less true. This by no means entails dominance of either side as both sides are equally necessary, but the "scope of humanity and its variations" speaks againts your claim so-far.

Of course humans are a higher-level mammal than felines - we have to be additionally concerned about the issues of culture and its impact of gender roles, but that's not what I was arguing - what I was arguing was that there are certain genetical traits that define us as masculine or feminine and to an extent determine some of our traits, both physical and mental.

The problem is, we can't use genetics to determine whether or not someone deserves the same amount of pay for the same job, or equal treatment in any aspect barring extreme cases. We have people who defy these norms quite often anymore, making them rather obsolete definitions. Hell, women fight to not be contained by genetic definitions, while employers are fighting to have access to the information for a myriad of hiring decisions. We can no longer compare ourselves to other animals either. We've effectively removed ourselves from the food chain, with only genetic links left to remind us that in some way, we're related to those other animals out there. You can say there's a reason the lioness goes out hunting (shopping) and the lion protects the territory (stronger, dominant, head of the house), but feminism already seeks to defy such basic definitions that are viewed as sexist, not just out of political correctness.

I mean, I understand what you're saying, but this is about feminism. Genetic links and animal gender relationships serve no purpose in the long run.

Quick Edit: Having actually taken a class on genetics as well, I can say with ease that things are still changing so rapidly in the field of genetics, old research being overturned, new things being found, that they're hard to use in a debate at all.