[Rydian]

iSubaru, on 06 February 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Kevan - that's the part I can't get to my mind, It has been proven thousand times that if something is ported to Windows and Mac OS X, then it will work on Linux no matter what (Wine as third-party, and natively if someone would do it) so I don't get it WHY Valve cuts their money out, if they would make Linux version they automatically gain more customers...it's really...stupid...

Valve doesn't make most of the games on Steam, and has to get permission from the publishers/creators to sell.

The thing is Linux and DRM don't mix, so many many companies are unwilling to have their game on Linux, perhaps so many that Valve doesn't see all the work it would take to support the Linux platform (remember that this includes separate software updates and technical support for customers who will have an extremely wide range of systems) as worth it for the relatively-low profit.

[frogboy]

DanTheManMS, on 07 February 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

LeRodeur, on 06 February 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

By the way in what would it be useful on nds?
Just use another IM or simply use irc
Most teams never uses the steam chat, and why would you need it if you are not playing?

I've got several friends who I can only contact on IM via Steam or Facebook messenger, and of the two, I'd like to use Steam.

Only on Steam or FB? Don't they have access to a web browser?

[Rydian]

They often use FB chat in-browser, at least the people I know.

[iSubaru]

Quote

The thing is Linux and DRM don't mix

Why? o_O
Where is the problem for security or copyright stuff in Linux?
Linux doesn't mean "everything here MUST be open-source and free"
Linux itself is open-source and free but programs written on it can be close-source, DRM, payable and such
Cedega as example of payable program
MP3 Codec as example of non-free package (in USA only but still counts)

It's true that Valve is seller not producer, ok
Still if they would make Steam for Linux they would signal to producers
"Hey, now You can port Your games to Linux if You want"

[Rydian]

iSubaru, on 07 February 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Quote

The thing is Linux and DRM don't mix

Why? o_O
Where is the problem for security or copyright stuff in Linux?
Linux doesn't mean "everything here MUST be open-source and free"
Linux itself is open-source and free but programs written on it can be close-source, DRM, payable and such
Cedega as example of payable program
MP3 Codec as example of non-free package (in USA only but still counts)

It's true that Valve is seller not producer, ok
Still if they would make Steam for Linux they would signal to producers
"Hey, now You can port Your games to Linux if You want"

In Windows a lot of security is done via rootkits (such as hackshield) and forced virtual device drivers (such as starforce and such). Those types of things don't work in Linux. Either the concept they use does not exist in Linux's security model and is thus not possible, or even if it is possible people can mess with it easily. That concept scares off big companies.

[iSubaru]

Quote

In Windows a lot of security is done via rootkits (such as hackshield) and forced virtual device drivers (such as starforce and such). Those types of things don't work in Linux. Either the concept they use does not exist in Linux's security model and is thus not possible, or even if it is possible people can mess with it easily. That concept scares off big companies.

Kyahaha true
How many times Kaspersky alarmed about GameGuard as rootkit...
How many times Kaspersky alarmed 3 times before it finally allowed me to run FLYFF
&c.
Well they ARE possible, compile rootkit into Kernel...no more security but hey, possible <capt sarcasm 256%>

But then again, Mac OS X is - at this point - SAME as Linux, so what the heck, Mac OS X can do it and Linux can't?! WTF?!

The theory is good but the Mac OS X kills it

[Urza]

Post Deleted By a Moderator On 12 February 2012 - 01:59 AM.
Reason: Requested -rp

[Janthran]

LeRodeur, on 06 February 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

By the way in what would it be useful on nds?
Just use another IM or simply use irc
Most teams never uses the steam chat, and why would you need it if you are not playing?

I have an internet timer on my computer that my dad set up. It doesn't apply to my (3)DS. And most of what I do on the computer is chat with friends on Steam.

[Rydian]

iSubaru, on 12 February 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

But then again, Mac OS X is - at this point - SAME as Linux, so what the heck, Mac OS X can do it and Linux can't?! WTF?!

The theory is good but the Mac OS X kills it

OSX has a lot in common with linux due to both of them being UNIX or UNIX-like, but it's not the same thing. Yes OSX "became" a UNIX a few versions ago, but that was just them getting certified, since "UNIX" is a trademarked name/term and you can't legally use that without permission from the authority. That's why Linux is called "UNIX-like".

inb4 "Why doesn't Linux ju-" - Not free (I think it's like $6,000 a version or year), and most people don't really give a damn since people already know it's UNIX-like.

Anyways, when you get down into the nitty-gritty of the OS (which is where rootkits like GG/HS and virtual device drivers like starforce operate), they differ in some key aspects.

• In Linux the source for any part of it is easy to get, and debugging tools for the OS's parts are abundant. Wanna' see how this program is trying to read a certain filesystem? Sure, look through the source and here's some tools to run. Wanna' see how this program scans the memory regions of another? No problem.
  
  In addition a (comparatively) large percentage of users are able and willing to dig down into what's given to them (as in programs) and find how it works and what code it has and what it does. You might even say some Linux groups are paranoid about this, as there's groups out there that examine any code and programs they can get to find licensing violations and security/privacy concerns. Many Linux users will dig into what they can get ahold of and disassemble it.
  
  
• In OSX the source and documentation for core parts is mostly inaccessible... normal users do not have access to this sort of thing. What's that, a program is hooking into I/O reads and you want access to the OSX I/O source to see what functions it's touching? Too bad. What's that, a program is using a virtual device driver to redirect optical drive reads and you want to see how to stop it? Too bad.
  
  In addition comparatively few users of OSX are technically-minded (take note this is in comparison to Linux, not Windows), and even those that are often choose OSX over Linux for the ease of use, and so are not the kind that immediately jump to disassembling programs they come across.

These two points make OSX a "safer" platform, at least as far as MMO companies are concerned. Yeah an MMO is only a game, but MMO companies make their living off of repeat customers, so they want as little as possible messing with the game and scaring off customers.

"Well then why are they often on Windows?" - A large enough consumer base can make other worries seem minimal in comparison.






tl;dr Linux and DRM don't mix as far as companies are concerned. Wish this wasn't so, but people use WINE and such to deal how they can.

[iSubaru]

I'm not specialists but I think that wole "X" series in Mac OS is Unix or Unix-like, the previous Mac OS (9 and below) was way another story (beautiful story...)

Quote

In Linux the source for any part of it is easy to get

Nope, if author doesn't want to reveal source code he/she doesn't have to, once again Linux license doesn't force ANYONE to make Open-Source programs, it just forces to make Linux be free and open-source, just that

Quote

Sure, look through the source and here's some tools to run.

Again, no willing to give source, no deal

Quote

In OSX the source and documentation for core parts is mostly inaccessible...

Once again, unless author wants to reveal the code

Quote

Wish this wasn't so, but people use WINE and such to deal how they can.

Yes but it doesn't work for GG/HS/othersuch[censored] things, as mentioned they are rootkits and Wine doesn't want to make them run, neither Linux itself wants, safe or not it's rootkit...the other thing is that GG is SO EASY to crack (well kick-out with game still run) but not everybody knows how to do it
End User must think not how to run the game but how to trick the game, that makes wrong politics of some sort, because instead user to be happy that he can play his favourite game on Linux, he must get the happiness by forcing his way to it...I don't mind such challenges but not everybody wants that kind of work to do
I still recall the guy that showed on Youtube how he has run Pangya (aka Albatross18 in the past) on Linux but didn't want to reveal the method because he believed to whole end of the world that if he will do it the company won't help Linux users...wha~?!

Anyway in my opinion we are still at the "hate" of companies to Linux...
IMO it's not problem to make program to be so-closed-source like on Mac OS X and to make it run on Linux
One more thing, if I would want to be "paranoic" about getting into source code by backward assembly, I can do it regardless of operating system I have (Virtual Machine FTW)
For example I install OSX on Virtual Machine, get the game, install it, play a bit, get it out to Linux host and use tools to disassembly it and what's more, if I will get source code there is HIGH chance I will be able to recompile it for my Linux platform!!! (just have to correct names of libraries names in the files and as worst case, get the ones that probably should not be in the network but they are anyway teehee xD)

[Rydian]

iSubaru, on 12 February 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

I'm not specialists but I think that wole "X" series in Mac OS is Unix or Unix-like, the previous Mac OS (9 and below) was way another story (beautiful story...)

No, I'm talking OSX. It got the UNIX label in 10.5. Previously it was like Linux, UNIX-like, but not a certified UNIX.

Even though they're both UNIX-like or UNIX, it doesn't mean they're the same thing though. Windows XP and Windows 7 are both Windows NT operating systems, but that doesn't mean compability and such is exactly the same. Hell, beteeen NT 5 (XP family) and NT 6 (Vista/7 family) the graphics system changed so older graphics drivers don't work and a bunch of crap too.

So even if things do share some commonness in the base, it doesn't mean that they're the same thing. It does not mean that the same sort of drivers and technologies will work with them.

iSubaru, on 12 February 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Quote

In Linux the source for any part of it is easy to get

Nope, if author doesn't want to reveal source code he/she doesn't have to, once again Linux license doesn't force ANYONE to make Open-Source programs, it just forces to make Linux be free and open-source, just that

Quote

Sure, look through the source and here's some tools to run.

Again, no willing to give source, no deal

Quote

In OSX the source and documentation for core parts is mostly inaccessible...

Once again, unless author wants to reveal the code

No dude, in that section I'm talking about the OS.
The source, tools, and documentation for Linux are easily-available.
http://www.kernel.or...b/linux/kernel/
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/docs/

OSX on the whole is not open-source. Yes it does use some open-source components, but it's not nearly to the point that Linux is.

iSubaru, on 12 February 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Yes but it doesn't work for GG/HS/othersuch[censored] things, as mentioned they are rootkits and Wine doesn't want to make them run, neither Linux itself wants, safe or not it's rootkit...

It's more of a technical limitation in many cases. WINE is an API translation layer, so there's things it can't do, mainly programs that would directly interact with the windows kernel (or install and use device drivers) instead of just using API calls like normal programs.

In addition like I said, sometimes the security ideas that Windows has and copy protections try to exploit just won't work on Linux.
http://wiki.winehq.org/CopyProtection

Quote

[...] Wine developers have to contend with undocumented interfaces, code obfuscation, and maintaining compatibility with *nix security models.

iSubaru, on 12 February 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

I still recall the guy that showed on Youtube how he has run Pangya (aka Albatross18 in the past) on Linux but didn't want to reveal the method because he believed to whole end of the world that if he will do it the company won't help Linux users...wha~?!

We see time and time again that companies will grasp at straws for reasons to not spend time/effort/money on something. That could easily be taken as an example of "Well see if we put it on Linux people will just hack it, so we won't do it."

iSubaru, on 12 February 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

One more thing, if I would want to be "paranoic" about getting into source code by backward assembly, I can do it regardless of operating system I have (Virtual Machine FTW)
For example I install OSX on Virtual Machine, get the game, install it, play a bit, get it out to Linux host and use tools to disassembly it and what's more, if I will get source code there is HIGH chance I will be able to recompile it for my Linux platform!!! (just have to correct names of libraries names in the files and as worst case, get the ones that probably should not be in the network but they are anyway teehee xD)

I didn't say it wasn't possible, but it's harder (getting OSX in a virtual machine at all takes more time and effort than linux) and less people care.

[Janthran]

@Rydian So.. Is this actually likely? >_>

[Rydian]

No. Like one of the first responses said, the API is not public.

[Janthran]

YOU were the one to start this whole thing in the first place. >_<

[Rydian]

Even if Steam went to Linux as well, that wouldn't make the API public.