Ukraine Crisis

[Flame]

whats your opinion in whats happening in Ukraine?

Mine is that Russia trying to start Cold War II. The Ukrainian people have spoken and they want to be part of the E.U. and don't want to be a dog of Russia.

Russia is claiming its protecting its peoples human rights.. so how.

 

[mightymuffy]

Cold War II might be pushing it a bit (that's the only time this topic will get a lol smiley off me....)

Not sure where you're from so don't know what your media is telling you (or for that matter how much you're following, sorry - bit harsh I know), but the Ukraine is very much split 50/50, with around half the nation pro-EU/West and the other half pro-Russia. Tensions are rising, and honestly I personally cannot see any good end result at all, and the fact that Russia are pouring soldiers into Crimea & demanding immediate surrender just makes matters far worse. Splitting the nation into 2 sounds like a nice end result, but that's highly unlikely to happen. Think the best thing to hope for is, for better or worse, as little bloodshed as possible until an agreement is reached... and the West (as horrible a thing as it is to say) do nothing more than impose sanctions on the Kremlin: any stand off, in this day & age, with the troubles in Syria, Iran, North Korea... well let's just not go there...

 

[Gahars]

Everyone's going to get mad at Russia. Putin's going to shrug his shoulders and make his best "Ain't I a stinker?" face. Russia gets what it wants out of Ukraine, and maybe the international community slaps its hand with some minor sanctions. Maybe. The prices of some stuff, like oil, will go up a bit, and stocks are going to slump a little. Then the world will move on like nothing happened.

Unless you live in Ukraine or one of the surrounding nations, you're not going to feel much of anything here, certainly not another Cold War.

 

[Foxi4]

Anybody who has little knowledge about the history of that particular region should refrain from voicing out an opinion on matters he/she knows nothing about.

Everybody's talking about how Ukrainians "fought the good fight to push out the tyrannous dictator out of their country and regain freedom", but that's all a croak of sh*t. This is the second time this sort of thing is happening - the first time was in 2004 during the Orange Revolution and everybody cheered them on back then as well. Of course as soon as the elections took place, everything went back to the usual order of business just so that the people can revolt 10 years later because at the end of the day, it's all a struggle for power and Utopian dreams are just that - dreams. Democracy isn't going to just "appear" - you have to gradually build it.

The fact of the matter is that the east of Ukraine didn't give a flying toss about what's taking place at Maidan since they're pro-Russian to begin with and the whole "Freedom Movement" was both limited and promoting debatable values. Ukraine is gradually being taken over by so-called "Banderans" who are neo-nazis, they spread hateful ideology under the usual guise of "power to the people". The very same Banderans were in charge of UPA killing countless Poles living in Ukraine "because they were Poles" back in WWII and the fact that this movement is gaining political power in the country inhabited by many of my compatriots and directly neighboring with Poland is absolutely unacceptable.

The lawful president of the country was forced to flee, but remains a lawful president nonetheless, regardless of what the guerilla fighters are saying. Yanukovych has full legal right to request military intervention from Russia if he pleases, the problem here is that whilst providing help, Russia is disregarding international laws because they feel like showing off their military brawn to show the world that they're "The Boss" in this region of the world. We're currently seeing a sit-com-like situation where Russian forces are knocking at the doors of Ukrainian garrisons asking them nicely to surrender and Ukraininan troops replying "No, sorry, we'd rather not" and that's that. In my opinion, nothing's actually going to happen, much like not much had happened in Georgia back in 2008 - Russia cannot afford a conflict like this, they're just showing off their military "potential".

The whole situation is a huge political mess with no good sides to it. On one hand you have the "Freedom Fighters" who happen to be neo-nazis, on the other you have the president who has dictator's ambitions backed by a pseudo-democratic country - there's just no good solution to the problem in Ukraine, and there are good reasons why this is the case which I will not comment upon to avoid having a pointless flamewar.

Long story short, there are some nasty, dirty details to this pseudo-conflict that people are not hearing about, or rather, don't want to hear about and supporting either side of it is not a good idea - there are no good sides there.

 

[Flame]

Anybody who has little knowledge about the history of that particular region should refrain from voicing out an opinion on the matter he/she knows nothing about.

Everybody's talking about how Ukrainians "fought the good fight to push out the tyrannous dictator out of their country and regain freedom", but that's all a croak of sh*t. This is the second time this sort of thing is happening - the first time was in 2004 during the Orange Revolution and everybody cheered them on back then as well. Of course as soon as the elections took place, everything went back to the usual order of business just so that the people can revolt 10 years later because at the end of the day, it's all a struggle for power and Utopian dreams are just that - dreams. Democracy isn't going to just "appear" - you have to gradually build it.

The fact of the matter is that the west of Ukraine didn't give a flying toss about what's taking place at Maidan since they're pro-Russian to begin with and the whole "Freedom Movement" was both limited and promoting debatable values. Crimea is gradually taken over by so-called "Banderans" who are neo-nazis, they spread hateful ideology under the usual guise of "power to the people". The very same Banderans were in charge of UPA killing countless Poles living in Ukraine "because they were Poles" back in WWII and the fact that this movement is gaining political power in the country inhabited by many of my compatriots and directly neighboring with Poland is absolutely unacceptable.

The lawful president of the country was forced to flee, but remains a lawful president nonetheless, regardless of what the guerilla fighters are saying. Yanukovych has full legal right to request military intervention from Russia if he pleases, the problem here is that whilst providing help, Russia is disregarding international laws because they feel like showing off their military brawn to show the world that they're "The Boss" in this region of the world. We're currently seeing a sit-com-like situation where Russian forces are knocking at the doors of Ukrainian garrisons asking them nicely to surrender and Ukraininan troops replying "No, sorry, we'd rather not" and that's that. In my opinion, nothing's actually going to happen, much like nothing happened in Georgia back in 2008 - Russia cannot afford a conflict like this, they're just showing off their military "potential".

The whole situation is a huge political mess with no good sides to it. On one hand you have the "Freedom Fighters" who happen to be neo-nazis, on the other you have the president who has dictator's ambitions backed by a pseudo-democratic country - there's just no good solution to the problem in Ukraine, and there are good reasons why this is the case which I will not comment upon to avoid having a pointless flamewar.

Long story short, there are some nasty, dirty details to this pseudo-conflict that people are not hearing about, or rather, don't want to hear about and supporting either side of it is not a good idea - there are no good sides there.

why would this "neo-nazis" want Ukraine to join Europe. because by doing what they did, they are making Ukraine more European. in my eyes the Modern European is the least likest neo-nazis organizations around. I think your just buying into Russian propaganda.

 

[tofast4u]

why would this "neo-nazis" want Ukraine to join Europe. because by doing what they did, they are making Ukraine more European. in my eyes the Modern European is the least likest neo-nazis organizations around. I think your just buying into Russian propaganda.

Yeah that is what I also don't understand, why would those Ukrainians want to join the European Union if they are neo-nazis, by joining the European Union the only thing they will get is open borders for floods of muslim Turks to rush in. But then again the party that is making these protests is the "Svaboda" party which is a far right Ukrainian party. Personally I support Russia ideologically in this conflict, but at the same time because I am an American I have to support my country because doing nothing will show the international community that the USA is weak and a nation that only talks.

 

[Foxi4]

why would this "neo-nazis" want Ukraine to join Europe. because by doing what they did, they are making Ukraine more European. in my eyes the Modern European is the least likest neo-nazis organizations around. I think your just buying into Russian propaganda.

Me? Buying into Russian propaganda? A Pole buying into Russian propaganda? Oh God.

It's called "keeping up appearances", my friend. Banderans are openly disregarding the happenings of 1943 in Volhynia as "historical propaganda", they're promoting the ideology of Stepan Bandera who is the closest thing the "Western" world has seen to Osama Bin Laden, they're agressive radicals and you're telling me that I'm buying into propaganda?

Excuse me, I really like you Flame, but you have no idea what you're talking about. The movement we're talking about is the Ukrainian equivalent of NSDAP.

The reason why they want to move towards the European Union is to get out from under Russia's boot, but that does not mean that they have good intentions at all. They're nationalists, they fight for Ukraine's autonomy and absolute independence, but you're forgetting about the costs.

This is far too serious a converastion for me to participate in - all I'm going to say is that the Third Reich also wanted total autonomy - by means of exterminating everyone who wasn't "German" in their understanding of the word. Expressing support towards a movement without being aware of its programme is a sign of extreme naivety.

 

[osirisjem]

The lawful president of the country was forced to flee

Hardly did the president abide by the laws. He's a crook and I'll guarantee you he'll never be in office one more day.
Just like in Saudia Arabia, elections are only one means of disposing of a leader.
Yanukovych is no longer the President.
And never ever will be.
He should be allowed to run in another election, but he's not going to run because he knows he won't win.

This uprising isn't about the Banderans in Crimea, it's about Kiev.

 

[Flame]

Yeah that is what I also don't understand, why would those Ukrainians want to join the European Union if they are neo-nazis, by joining the European Union the only thing they will get is open borders for floods of muslim Turks to rush in. But then again the party that is making these protests is the "Svaboda" party which is a far right Ukrainian party. Personally I support Russia ideologically in this conflict, but at the same time because I am an American I have to support my country because doing nothing will show the international community that the USA is weak and a nation that only talks.

Muslim Turk? Turkey is not part of the E.U. so no freedom of movement.

Me? Buying into Russian propaganda? A Pole buying into Russian propaganda? Oh God.

It's called "keeping up appearances", my friend. Banderans are openly disregarding the happenings of 1943 in Volhynia as "historical propaganda", they're promoting the ideology of Stepan Bandera who is the closest thing the "Western" world has seen to Osama Bin Laden, they're agressive radicals and you're telling me that I'm buying into propaganda?

Excuse me, I really like you Flame, but you have no idea what you're talking about. The movement we're talking about is the Ukrainian equivalent of NSDAP.

The reason why they want to move towards the European Union is to get out from under Russia's boot, but that does not mean that they have good intentions at all. They're nationalists, they fight for Ukraine's autonomy and absolute independence, but you're forgetting about the costs.

This is far too serious a converastion for me to participate in - all I'm going to say is that the Third Reich also wanted total autonomy - by means of exterminating everyone who wasn't "German" in their understanding of the word. Expressing support towards a movement without being aware of its programme is a sign of extreme naivety.

I like to believe im open minded..

so whats the end game by the west than? because if this is true, west spies should know about this and im sure they wouldn't want neo-nazi part of the E.U. most of all the U.S.

even Poland is backing new Ukrainian goverment.

 

[Foxi4]

Hardly did the president abide by the laws. He's a crook and I'll guarantee you he'll never be in office one more day.
Just like in Saudia Arabia, elections are only one means of disposing of a leader.
Yanukovych is no longer the President.
And never ever will be.
He should be allowed to run in another election, but he's not going to run because he knows he won't win.

This uprising isn't about the Banderans in Crimea, it's about Kiev.

Right... Here's the thing... there are three instances when a President steps down from his position:

1. When the term of his office ends
2. When the Cabinet decides that he is no longer fit for duty and decides that a new president should be elected, at which point they organize a public vote
3. When he dies before the end of his term

None of these circumstances occured. Now, Canada doesn't have a President since your country's post-colonial situation was never really wrapped up properly and your Cabinet still feels like a part of the British Commonwealth, or how it's called these days, the Commonwealth of Nations, but at the same time wishes to be considered an actual country, so the head of your country is the Prime Minister, which is currently Stephen Harper. If a band of neo-nazis stormed the capital and forced Harper to flee, this would in no way affect his position as a Prime Minister, point. He would be legally the Prime Minister unless the country goes through a complete political turn-over and another head of the government would be globally accepted.

Don't get me wrong, I think that Yanukovych is an ass just as much as you do - I'm merely underlining that the current situation in no way affects his political power or his position. Everything depends on your point of view, or rather, the point of view of other political powers.

I like to believe im open minded..

so whats the end game by th west than? because if this is true, west spies should know about this and im sure they wouldn't want neo-nazi part of the E.U. most of all the U.S.

even Poland is backing new Ukrainian goverment.

Our Prime Minister does because he's a complete and utter moron who doesn't know when to shut his mouth and his speeches are not exactly doing him favours at the moment.

The E.U. knows very well about the Banderans, their history and their plans for the future, but they'd rather have Ukraine in the hands of neo-nazis than in the hands of Russia because Ukraine is a critical region for the construction of Russia's new gas pipeline. Losing Ukraine will have immediate and severe consequences to Kremlin, which is why they're so "eager to help" the poor Ukranians opressed by the "terrorists".

 

[osirisjem]

LOL.

Right... Here's the thing... there are three instances when a President steps down from his position:

1. When the term of his office ends
2. When the Cabinet decides that he is no longer fit for duty and decides that a new president should be elected, at which point they organize a public vote
3. When he dies before the end of his term

None of these circumstances occured.

You can add one more

4. When the people kick you out and you flee.

Ukraine is so corrupt, it's time for a change.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

Time for the Ukraine to head in the direction of the Baltic States and Poland.

Russia can't afford economic sanctions, they'll back down eventually.
Putin just needs a bit of time to be allowed to Chest Thump.

 

[Foxi4]

*Hipster Snip!*

I'm sorry, how many times are you expecting Ukraine to revolt in the nearby future? Are revolts going to be their thing?

If we're talking about Ukraine going in Poland's direction, why won't we talk about the 17 Prime Ministers and 6 Presidents Poland had between 1939 and 1986 when Poland either didn't politically exist on the map or was currently being sold off to U.S.S.R by yours truly wester Europe and the U.S.A? They're legally considered the heads of State at that time, ruled from abroad (government in exile) and their functions were passed on to Lech Wałęsa after a legal and fair election.

Are you literally going to play the corruption card and blame it all on one individual? The reason why corruption is so prominent in Ukraine and all post-soviet states or territories that used to be occupied by soviets is because during the times of communism you couldn't organize jack sh*t without connections or corruption. It was the bread and water of everyday life and it's a problem of mentality - you can elect ten zillion quadrillion presidents and the problem will not go away.

As for Putin backing down, this won't be as easy as you imagine. Again, Ukraine is critical to Russia's business interests, the country is a major hub of transportation of their fossil fuels and they want to keep a close eye on it.

 

[osirisjem]

Are you literally going to play the corruption card and blame it all on one individual?

Buddying up with Russia and not the EU was the corrupt move that cost him the Presidency.
Yanukovych played a card he didn't have and the people called his bluff.

I'm not sure he's going to be driving his Porsche 911 any time soon.

Yanukovych will be room-mates with Snowden eventually.
When talk about War Crimes comes up ... he'll be gone.

 

[Foxi4]

Buddying up with Russia and not the EU was the corrupt move that cost him the Presidency.
Yanukovych played a card he didn't have and the people called his bluff.

I'm not sure he's going to be driving his Porsche 911 any time soon.

View attachment 6809

Yanukovych will be room-mates with Snowden eventually.
When talk about War Crimes comes up ... he'll be gone.

>Implying that Banderans will "stay" after talks of war crimes start

I'm not sure how old you are or what's the extent of your geopolitical knowledge of the region or its history, but you sound like one of the thousands if not millions of people who preach about "freedom" over Facebook and support each and every freedom movement regardless of its political agenda and legitimacy. This is the definition of willful ignorance, but I don't want to offend you in any way, so I will do my best to refrain from taking part in this discussion. You are absolutely free to believe in anything you want, even if what you believe in is a fake front.

Yanukovych is as much an ass as Putin is, the opposition is a bunch of asses as well and as I said in my initial post, in this particular situation there are no good sides of the conflict. Each side of it is an oppresor of sorts, with the Banderans being radical, Nationalist neo-nazis, Putin being power-hungry and flexing his muscles for the world to see and Yanukovych desperately clinging to his current power when in exile and at the end of it all, "the people" will hopefuly choose the lesser evil. That is all.

 

[osirisjem]

I just want you to realize the Yanukovych is done.
Your first post insinuated "The rightful leader come back to power".
But that ship has sailed.

I don't know what is best for Ukraine. But I doubt it's Yanukovych.
He proved that with his corrupt dealings with Russia.

How old I am is irrelevant.
Let's just say I was playing Donkey Kong on Colecovision when you were a twinkle in your mother's eye.

 

[chavosaur]

The problem with Having a political discussion on gbatemp is that everyone is ninTENyear's-old.
And barely anyone is going to have a clue what's going on. I barely have a clue about what's going on which is why I refrain from acting like I know anything at all or try to pull an opinion out of my ass.

 

[Foxi4]

I just want you to realize the Yanukovych is done.
Your first post insinuated "The rightful leader come back to power".
But that ship has sailed.

I don't know what is best for Ukraine. But I doubt it's Yanukovych.
He proved that with his corrupt dealings with Russia.

How old I am is irrelevant.
Let's just say I was playing Donkey Kong on Colecovision when you were a twinkle in your mother's eye.

I've never insinuated that he should come back to power, what I said, quite clearly, is that he's the current lawful president of Ukraine until a new lawful president of Ukraine is elected via legally acceptable means. Age is indeed irrelevant, but only when you have the knowledge and experience to support your claims - most youths don't.

 

[Taleweaver]

Interesting discussion. I was going to say something in the lines of the people being split up in that most of the Western side of Ukraine wants to side with the EU while most of the Eastern side of the country wants support from Russia...

But Foxi's take of the situation is far more detailed than I could ever read in newspapers, so I better refrain from too much comments.

 

[Black-Ice]

JOIN MOTHER RUSSIA
NO JOIN THE EU
"Hey guys, why can't we just be an independent country?"


No country's involvement in that crisis is to be helpful. Its all to secure ukraine as a power position

 

[Foxi4]

Interesting discussion. I was going to say something in the lines of the people being split up in that most of the Western side of Ukraine wants to side with the EU while most of the Eastern side of the country wants support from Russia...

But Foxi's take of the situation is far more detailed than I could ever read in newspapers, so I better refrain from too much comments.

That's pretty much the current situation - one side of Ukraine actually protested and revolted and the other side was grossly uninterested in the happenings. In fact, some say that they were actually looking at Russia, waiting for their intervention. The country is divided and saying that "Ukrainian people have chosen the E.U." is a gross overstatement - a vocal and militant portion did, which is reflected by the current, newly-elected government consisting almost exclusively of politicians from one party.

I personally think that the whole E.U. business may be used as a front simply to use the organization against Russia's influence - the moment the danger is dealt with, they will revert to their own ways simply because that's what Nationalists do. I've never heard of an ultra-right-wing party wanting to be a part of any Union unless we're talking about the Axis - such parties are usually isolationist.

Interesting fact, pro-Russian Ukrainians began protesting in defense of Russian as the official language in the areas where they live - it's instances like this that show that the Ukrainian society is very much divided and not everything is black and white there.

EDIT: ...and before someone accuses me of pro-Russian thinking, I'd like to underline that I'm all for a free Ukraine, but you can't replace one devil with another. Free Ukraine? Yes. In the hands of radicals? No, bad idea. When was the last time when an ultra-right-wing party took over a country and made things "better"? Ah, yes, that never happened.

The reason why both Russia and the E.U. defend their interests in Ukraine so feverently is that they don't want to face another energy crisis like they have in 2009, when Gazprom and Ukraine quarreled over the Russian gas line which resulted in closing it temporarily and cutting gas support to many European countries. Both want their influence there, for obvious reasons - it's like a big, red valve that can work against either party. Gas and oil are critical to Russia's interests, and they happen to be transited via Ukraine.