Hardware PS4 = Easy to Emulate?

[Foxi4]

Hardware-assisted virtualization says hi?

But that that's also assuming it's using standard instruction sets.

Seeing that the system is running on FreeBSD (confirmed) it's entirely possible that as with CXBX, we may be able to "convert" executables to run somewhat natively on a modified FreeBSD kernel with very little emulation/virtualization involved - that'd be pretty dandy.

 

[KazoWAR]

I wonder how they games would run without 8cores or 4.5?+ GB of GDDR5 ram.

 

[BORTZ]

While the architecture may look like a PC, we're still miles away from a proper emulator. Remember the original Xbox? It was x86 based and still there is no proper emulator for it.

Is there anything to emulate from an Xbox?

 

[Sporky McForkinspoon]

Emulating the CPU and GPU will not be required as PC's will be able to run all of that code native.

The problem will be the custom chips and the encryption/DRM that is sure to be loaded and checked at every stage.

Probably a special chip on the drives of these things just to make sure the data coming off the drive is encrypted and only decrypted after it hits main RAM.

At least that's how I would do it, encrypted disk, hits chip with key right on the drive encrypted data sent to RAM then decrypted by another chip on a need to know basis... Different schemes for the GPU and the CPU so that even if one is cracked the other can be used to re secure the system using some of that fancy GPU code stuff... lol

Encryption on a GPU is probably pretty effective, since using a GPU to crack encryption is one of the best ways to do it... I can only imagine the tool would be equally useful on the other end of the spectrum.

This. The hardware itself will eventually be outstripped by newer PCs, but although it took them a few decades, the console makers are finally getting to not suck at crypto.

 

[trumpet-205]

Is there anything to emulate from an Xbox?

This. The hardware itself will eventually be outstripped by newer PCs, but although it took them a few decades, the console makers are finally getting to not suck at crypto.

Despite Xbox using Pentium III, it has undocumented instructions that were not in x86. In other words it has instructions that no x86 CPU used in PC has.

I'm sure the same thing will happen with PS4/X1. Just because it is using AMD Jaguar does not mean it is a simple job to emulate these consoles. RAM will be a big challenge for example (8GB unified GDDR5 RAM). Current PC RAM does not have the speed to match GDDR5. Neither is upcoming DDR4.

Encryption is actually not a big deal like Psionic claimed. One of the biggest problem with emulator is getting tight timing (no CPU or GPU is getting ahead of each other).

 

[BORTZ]

Despite Xbox using Pentium III, it has undocumented instructions that were not in x86. In other words it has instructions that no x86 CPU used in PC has.

I'm sure the same thing will happen with PS4/X1. Just because it is using AMD Jaguar does not mean it is a simple job to emulate these consoles. RAM will be a big challenge for example (8GB unified GDDR5 RAM). Current PC RAM does not have the speed to match GDDR5. Neither is upcoming DDR4.

Encryption is actually not a big deal like Psionic claimed. One of the biggest problem with emulator is getting tight timing (no CPU or GPU is getting ahead of each other).

I guess i meant "exclusive games" -wise

 

[Zeliga]

Hmm I dont know maybe :/

 

[marcus134]

Despite Xbox using Pentium III, it has undocumented instructions that were not in x86. In other words it has instructions that no x86 CPU used in PC has.

Wrong, it's possible to upgrade the xbox cpu with an off the shelf pentium 3 (tualatin), if the original xbox cpu had some "secret sauce" that mod would be impossible.
http://www.gamestron.com/enhancedxbox.html

 

[Foxi4]

Wrong, it's possible to upgrade the xbox cpu with an off the shelf pentium 3 (tualatin), if the original xbox cpu had some "secret sauce" that mod would be impossible.
http://www.gamestron.com/enhancedxbox.html

The CPU was a custom Coppermine Pentium III but as you said, it was entirely compatible with the standard Pentium III setup - later off-the-shelf Pentium III processors were simply beefier than the one in the XBox which is why some people chose to upgrade in this fashion. If anything, the XBox CPU was actually a budget edition of the Pentium III.

 

[SuzieJoeBob]

Xbox (original) isn't complicated at all. It's basically a consolized PC. PS2 has a far more complex CPU system than Xbox and it's been emulated. Only thing I can think of holding it back is no real demand for Xbox emulation. Most of the wanted games have ports on other systems (or PC).

Then why don't you make an XBOX emulator if it is so easy??? That's what I thought....

 

[Vinnymac]

I do not know if this was already posted. But if you want to know more about why xbox emulation is so difficult. This explains mostly everything.

Based on everything I have read. The GPU in the Xbox seems to be the most difficult part. Nvidia does not even release open source drivers (yet), so expecting people to know their way around a completely undocumented unique piece of hardware is crazy.

 

[Foxi4]

Then why don't you make an XBOX emulator if it is so easy??? That's what I thought....

It's not a matter of whether it's difficult or not, more so a matter of severe lack of interest. Most games in the XBox's library were either available for other platforms as well or had far superior PC releases - there's not a whole lot of exclusive content on the system and it doesn't have a fanbase nearly as big as the other two market giants. Moreover, the approach is also different - coders try to virtualize the XBox environment on the PC (CXBX, for example) rather than actually emulate the machine proper which could've been done ages ago, except why would you do that if the architecture is compatible and you can virtualize, leading to far superior end results?

I do not know if this was already posted. But if you want to know more about why xbox emulation is so difficult.This explains mostly everything.

Point #1 is pointless - Bochs emulates the x86 architecture on non-x86 devices - you don't have to do that because your PC is x86-based already, if anything, compare it to a virtual machine - that's far more accurate.

Point #2 is just as pointless because again, you don't have to emulate the architecture - you only emulate the XBox environment.

Point #3 is actually true, which is why some XBox emulators just don't do that - instead they opt to directly interpret GPU instructions which is why they work best on NVidia-based rigs.

Point #4 regarding Audio is also true, but not a huge hurdle.

Point #5 is a problem, but not a problem that cannot be rectified with research.

Point #6 there are indeed different Video Encoders used and they are all cross-compatible and work with all the games so you only really need to emulate one of them.

Again, the biggest problem with XBox emulators is not the XBox, it's lack of interest.

 

[SuzieJoeBob]

True. Also, many people just went to the XBOX 360, which has backwards-compatibility with most games untouched, and almost full compatibility when modded. PS2 and Gamecube was where all of the attention was at, especially with PS2 having Twisted Metal and FFX, and the Gamecube having SSB Melee and Mario.

 

[l154]

Easy to emulate? Maybe. But 'easy' doesn't always mean practical. The real problem is not the ease of emulation, but the amount of emulation necessary. CPUs are only half the story...

I'm not a developer, but here's my POV:

I think the main problem of emulation is.. well, that its still emulation. Emulation implies imposing (or whatever the correct term is) something that's not actually there... Why does it make a difference when it's all x86? Think about this: So many people complained about the specs of the one and ps4 -- but just because they compared it to a totally different system - a PC. YOU CAN'T COMPARE THOSE! x86 or not... makes no difference. It's just a language, and speaking ones language doesn't make you an expert in anything. For example: A console can easily reach the same graphical quality of a PC with much higher specs, because of optimization for a certain kind of assembly. The developers know exactly what they're dealing with; and because a PC is always considered 'versatile' in the first place, the kind of approach must be different. You have to keep in mind that the CPU is only 1 problem. I think the GPU part is much more difficult...

Think of console graphics like this... If you (=developer) want to tell some chinese speaking (=console) artist (=architecture) in a letter how to paint a specific picture (=display graphics), it would be relatively easy if you write to him in chinese (=fast native low level API). The communication would be very efficient. You know what you're dealing with, so your approach is straight forward and fast.
PCs are different: The artists you are writing to are still human (=equal architecture), have the same capabilities as any other artist, but because there are so many different languages, you have to find a way to translate your words. That's what Microsoft's DirectX (=slow but versatile high level API) does. It takes your english letter, translates it to native, and hands it to the human painting the picture. While not nearly being as fast as the console like approach, you can reach your goal as easily BUT with much lower efficiency because of overhead.

That's why PCs need better hardware to reach the same level of performance in terms of graphics, and that's why I don't give a shit about console specs. The key lies in talking directly to something you know - It increases efficiency by maybe even orders of magnitude. You simply cannot do this on PCs (currently).

One might argue now that with increasing processing power, it could eventually be done, and they're right. But there lies the problem! You have to take a piece of software that already runs faster on a console, translate the low level code to a high level code (DirectX) which will then be translated AGAIN -- even if your CPU could execute the core code directly. And since we know that x86 systems are not always equal (like old xbox), they're never 100% equal in fact, you have to translate part of that shit, too... And there are many other obstacles I didn't even talk about.

So is it easier to emulate? Part of it, yes, but the drawbacks are still HUGE and big enough to just leave it alone... By the time you could execute the console code on PC at the same speed because of increasing processing power, 1-3 new generations of consoles are already in store and nobody cares anymore.

But who knows what lies in the future of hardware... ATI will soon implement their low-level API called 'mantle'. This could be a huge deal for PC gamers and it is the first time someone does this since 3dfx's 'GLide', iirc. Considering that the new consoles also utilize AMD graphics... It might soon (in a few generations) be possible to play console titles on PCs. IF there's still a major difference between those 2 systems.

 

[stanleyopar2000]

for fucking fucks sake it's not even out yet.....I don't remember posts like this since the DS 1 and flashme was released ..wtf is happening

 

[l154]

for fucking fucks sake it's not even out yet.....I don't remember posts like this since the DS 1 and flashme was released ..wtf is happening

Well, as consoles are becoming more and more hard to distinguish from PCs, i think it's natural that these questions arise. I see no point in leaving the subject alone if people are interested in it. What exactly is your problem with it?

 

[stanleyopar2000]

Well, as consoles are becoming more and more hard to distinguish from PCs, i think it's natural that these questions arise. I see no point in leaving the subject alone if people are interested in it. What exactly is your problem with it?

I guess it leaves a healthy discussion..but maybe when it's out it would be more practical....
that's like asking if Smash Bros 3DS will work on Gateway

 

[l154]

I guess it leaves a healthy discussion..but maybe when it's out it would be more practical....
that's like asking if Smash Bros 3DS will work on Gateway

You cannot compare your example to this, your's is much more specific. I don't think it would make any difference, because the term 'x86' is the only thing PCs and PS have in common; and the answer will be the same: Emulation won't happen any faster than it has in the past. No point in keeping the answer till it's out.

 

[Deltaechoe]

I'm going to leave this here, the CPU is not the only thing you have to worry about with emulation (GPU, the bios, the system security measures, ect)

As an added note, it would be INSANE to think that sony wouldn't hire ITSec devs to harden their system against virtualization/emulation/piracy. The likely story is that parts of the PS4 were made specifically for stopping these kinds of activities and sony has only gotten better at it since after the PSP

 

[chyyran]

If I recall correctly, I remember something about the main hurdle in Xbox emulation, besides lack of interest, is the GPU, not the CPU. The Nvidia GPU the Xbox had next to none documentation, so there you go.

It's likely that the PS4 will end up the same way here.