Pokémon - The Battle Between Legitimacy and Legality

Should legal Pokémon (created artificially) be allowed in the games?

  • Yes

    Votes: 106 54.9%
  • No

    Votes: 87 45.1%

  • Total voters
    193

lordofthereef

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I still dont see the problem. Nintendo could just say, ok we can let 3 clones pass. 3 clone would be so extremely unlikely if you ad your searial numer into the mix that you'll have a better chance bruteforcing PS4...

But they aren't going to say that, because the chance is still there. That is exactly my point. (and I mentioned this a few posts back, but the chances become significantly higher when you chain monsters with poke radar because after a couple dozen chains you are virtually guaranteed a 5IV monster.

The answer to "stopping genned monsters" is not "maybe banning legit monsters". That's just silly. (By the way that could do that now, and last year, and the year before if that was their methodology)

And not to mention the fact that if there is a known number of clones let to pass, know what happens? Cloning still goes crazy, except that ales of cloned monsters goes up. Nintendo doesn't want to create a black/grey market of digital content that they aren't making a dime on. I clone my clones to make breeding stock so that I can have an easy breeder out of it. Then clone those perfect offspring... see what I am doing You are slowing the process. You are not eliminating it.

But all this brings me back to the whole point of... why do all of this convoluted nonsense at all when you can literally get rid of the problem in the first place?
 

DaniPoo

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Well if they just added the birthday for each pokemon that would solve that problem.
You cant meet two copies at the same time

so the new security would add console ID as well as Date and time into the mix.
I cant see any flaw in that

That would make cloning more obvious and without misstaking any *real* pokemon for clones.
 

daniilS

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Well if they just added the birthday for each pokemon that would solve that problem.
You cant meet two copies at the same time

so the new security would add console ID as well as Date and time into the mix.
I cant see any flaw in that

That would make cloning more obvious and without misstaking any *real* pokemon for clones.
Add time to date and it will work even better. And as soon as you get a pokemon in a legit way, such as catching or trading it, its data, including console id and receiving date+time get stored somewhere in compressed format. When sending out a pokemon, it gets checked. If its data isn't present there, that means it was cheated in/cloned.
 

lordofthereef

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Add time to date and it will work even better. And as soon as you get a pokemon in a legit way, such as catching or trading it, its data, including console id and receiving date+time get stored somewhere in compressed format. When sending out a pokemon, it gets checked. If its data isn't present there, that means it was cheated in/cloned.

Well if they just added the birthday for each pokemon that would solve that problem.
You cant meet two copies at the same time

so the new security would add console ID as well as Date and time into the mix.
I cant see any flaw in that

That would make cloning more obvious and without misstaking any *real* pokemon for clones.


But date and time is changeable on your console. Very easily in fact. So that's out the window.

The problem is, with an authentication system, you don't want to start marking something legitimate as fake because it "probably is fake". In today's system, meaning the way it is now, something that looks like a clone probably is a clone, even though it doesn't, by law of probability, HAVE to be. But they don't mark it a clone and ban it because there is a chance to do that.

Listen, we are probably not going to come up with a plan to "fix the hacking of pokemon" problem. GF, which has a boatload of money than everyone in this thread combined have undeniably thought long and hard about these issues. They are only banning pokemon that cannot possibly exist, not even accidentally for a reason; they aren't about to get into a habit of banning monsters that might be legit.

And again... why do all of this convoluted nonsense at all when you can literally get rid of the problem in the first place? Get rid of this stupid dice roll, as they are already planning to do.

And here is another thing I just thought of regardning this "clone database" that intend should keep...

Pokemon is a dynamic trading situation. I can have said pokemon one day and trade it t someone else across the globe the next. So long as said pokemon is not simultaneously in play with its clone, there really is no ban it. Unless of course the suggestion is to ban the pokemon ID altogether, which I think would be equally problematic for those thinking they received the monster legitimately.
 

DaniPoo

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No its not out of the window, think about it a litle more. It wouldnt be possible without exploiting the machine software. And if that was the case then Nintendo has no obligation to accept the pokemon as legal right :P Two identical pokemon with exactly the same values and coming from the same machine at the same time could NEVER happen naturally. And thats why nintendo could block that pokemon and if then wanted ban that player.

Well this security would render cloning completely useless but in would not stop generated pokemon.
 

nryn99

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I am going to come out and say that if you want to be competitive, TRULY competitive, you are going to clone, or gen (notice I don't say HACK, because moves that have no business being on a mon have no business being in the game, PERIOD). If you legitimately DO NOT do that (and I honestly believe such a person doesn't exist) you are literally spending hundreds of hours just getting your proven team built and ready for tournament.

Well, since nothing is being done against it, cheating became a must.
Like I mentioned in my post which mentioned RF Online, during the period where nothing has been done, only 2 paths were available to the players, duplicate(clone) or at least obtain a duplicated item to survive pvps with people who cheated, or quit playing. I quit it because I dislike having everyone having almost exactly having the same items, like you're wearing a uniform.
Pvp wasn't the same because the items I earned legitimately doesn't mean anything to those who duplicated items. had no choice but to use rmt and buy better items. Though eventually I also quit because I couldn't take in the corruption.
I came back only after the purge but it was too late, game was already dying and being milked.

I doubt many would quit playing pokemon and would rather gladly join in the cheating.
 
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mkdms14

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The thing is there are some pokemon that were in the code but for some odd reason either they were never released to the public outside of Japan or had event release that either no one heard about or few people went to it. Acouple come to mind like Mew for Pokemon Blue and red. I heard there was an event for that but could never find any accurate evidence pointing to it in USA. Same with Celibi for gold and Silver. So as long as there is a way to get them with out breaking an arm or a leg I am all for it.
 

lordofthereef

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The thing is there are some pokemon that were in the code but for some odd reason either they were never released to the public outside of Japan or had event release that either no one heard about or few people went to it. Acouple come to mind like Mew for Pokemon Blue and red. I heard there was an event for that but could never find any accurate evidence pointing to it in USA. Same with Celibi for gold and Silver. So as long as there is a way to get them with out breaking an arm or a leg I am all for it.

Toys R US did a release for Mew in Blue And Red. I remember being there for that. But your point still stands. Limited distro should either not be allowed to be battled or it shouldn't be limited distro.

From IGN:
For those of you who have caught 'em all but are still desperate to add to that collection, November 26th is your day. That's the day Mew, Pokémon #151, comes to Toys "R" Us all across the country.

As many Pokémaniacs know, Mew is the most rare Pokémon of them all. There is no possible way to catch him or trade for him in either Pokémon Red, Blue, or Yellow cartridges. The only way to snag this critter, up until now, was to be a Nintendo Power contest winner snag him at a special Pokémon event.

Finally, Mew is available to the masses. However, Pokémon trainers will have to be on their toes if they want to catch Mew. Here's how to be a part of this event:
  • Have your Gameboy and a Pokémon Gameboy cartridge ready on November26th.
  • Be the one of the first 1,500 customers at any Toys "R" Us store, and you will receive a special 'Peel & Win' sticker card.
  • Peel off the Mew sticker.
  • If the words "Caught Me!" appear under the sticker, you have won Mew, and a Toys "R" Us employee will upload a Mew Pokémon into your own Pokémon cartridge (be it Red, Blue, or Yellow).
Two hundred Mews will be given away at each Toys "R" Us location, so you have about a one-in-seven chance of snagging one.

See your local Toys "R" Us for more details and legal mumbo-jumbo, and while you're at it, scope out your city for an underpopulated Toys "R" Us store for the best chance to catch Mew. This will be a tough hunt, but a Master Trainers should be up to the challenge. Good luck!

I don't recall anyone being turned away, by the way. LOL!

No its not out of the window, think about it a litle more. It wouldnt be possible without exploiting the machine software. And if that was the case then Nintendo has no obligation to accept the pokemon as legal right :P Two identical pokemon with exactly the same values and coming from the same machine at the same time could NEVER happen naturally. And thats why nintendo could block that pokemon and if then wanted ban that player.


No... I can change the time and date stamp of my game (you can't possibly be referring to this as exploiting the machine software, right? :blink: ). And nintendo has never decided that was illegal (nor should they). The simply fact that I rolled my time and date stamp back and forth (for whatever reason) shouldn't render my pokemon illegal. And, in fact, Nintendo themselves have labeled this as "time traveling" in games such as ACNL, so they actually condone it.

I think you are thinking of this in terms of an EULA. And breeding a freaking pokemon can;t have an EULA. It can;t have fine print. I shouldn't have to read the do's and fonts of lending my game, lending my ds, changing my date and time stamp all in the name of making sure I don't accidentally breed/catch or otherwise find a pokemon identical to mine and someone else's. That's just silly.

I am saying that my stance is that if there is even a small chance for an identical pokemon to LEGITIMATELY be generated, Nintendo and Gamefreak have not created a good enough system where they should be banning monsters or players because they are "most likely illegal". Changing the system (getting rid of it all together) would pretty much defeat almost all of the demand for this overnight.

Well, since nothing is being done against it, cheating became a must.
Like I mentioned in my post which mentioned RF Online, during the period where nothing has been done, only 2 paths were available to the players, duplicate(clone) or at least obtain a duplicated item to survive pvps with people who cheated, or quit playing. I quit it because I dislike having everyone having almost exactly having the same items, like you're wearing a uniform.
Pvp wasn't the same because the items I earned legitimately doesn't mean anything to those who duplicated items. had no choice but to use rmt and buy better items. Though eventually I also quit because I couldn't take in the corruption.
I came back only after the purge but it was too late, game was already dying and being milked.

I doubt many would quit playing pokemon and would rather gladly join in the cheating.


I posit that if "everyone" is "cheating", then it's not cheating at all. Rather, the game has been adopted as something else by it's fan base than what its creators intended. I know we touched on this somewhat before. I honestly don't see a problem with that. I'd love for game freak to just sell me a battle game where all you do is build monsters from scratch (like a character creation screen) and battle them. And I bet it would sell incredibly well too. Since they don't do that, people have taken it into their own hands to do that themselves. :)
 

DaniPoo

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Gamefreak should have all right to suspect this as som kind of exploitation if they wanted since it is just silly.
You mean that the OT, ID, Secret ID, IV's, EV'S, Ability, Nature, Moves, Order of moves, held item, pokeball, encountered location, Console unique ID and date and time would be identical and pass right trough the security without nintando being able to do anyting about it?
Yeah maybe they could let one or two cases like this slip. But if they see lots of cases like this then they would really do something about it. Because then it just cant be a coincident
They could easily have you accepting new terms in order to get the online features.
 

lordofthereef

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But the point you are dancing around is they are NOT doing any that. I am simply giving you a reason WHY not. GF has the right to put into the fine print that after 400 hours of play your game will no longer work. They have the "right" to do almost whatever they want because, well, THEY OWN THE RIGHTS to these games. What I am saying is they won't do that, for the reasons I mentioned above. They realize they have an imperfect system and aren't about to start banning legitimate monsters because they weren't able to make a system that detected them properly in the first place. You may be ok with banning someone's monster for changing the timestamp. I am saying I am not, especially when there are games where Nintendo has mentioned that it's legitimate to do so. It causes confusion amongst players and, as mentioned many times in this very thread, "this is a kid's game".

As for updating their on

THEIR ANSWER IS GETTING RID OF THE SYSTEM ALLTOGETHER COME NEXT GEN. (this is probably the last time I will say that, but maybe not lol)

Can't or won't?

Similarly can I point and laugh at the nuzlocke people?

I think the argument here is that the legitimate players, who feel there is some value in breeding and training your own monsters, are going into battle and getting rolled by kids with beefed up monsters with perfect stats and move sets.

I can respect the argument, but would like to point out that many (I won't say most because I don't know) people who use these monsters don't do so to "pwn n00bs", but rather to better their own battling skills.
 

Chocolina

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If you used any tools to augment your pokemon, then that pokemon shouldn't, in a morale standpoint, be allowed to fight online, regardless if the stats are in your favor or not.

That said, its not the matter of right or wrong, but "who the fuck cares?" Got bored of that game in a month. I won't be returning back to it.
Cheat if you want, its not like you're any different from the other cheaters of all the other online games...

That "legal stats" excuse is as valid as people saying that made up excuse "You can only keep this rom for 24 hours and then you have to delete it." just to pirate... As if that excuse would even matter in a court.
 

lordofthereef

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That "legal stats" excuse is as valid as people saying that made up excuse "You can only keep this rom for 24 hours and then you have to delete it." just to pirate... As if that excuse would even matter in a court.


Well, except that in creating a mon you aren't actually breaking any laws... whereas with rome you absolutely are. And in many cases (The US for sure), even if you own the original game, you are still breaking the law. Even ripping mp3's from CDs is a grey area that the music industry essentially gave up on since there is no real way police it.

My point is, comparing legal activities to illegal is, well, too much of a stretch, IMO anyway.

By the way, I can completely respect your moral dilemma/highground. What I wonder is your stance on receiving a generated (referring to specifically monsters generated outside of the game) mon in a trade, where there is literally no way for the recipient to know whether the monster actually came from a game, or an iPhone app.
 

Chocolina

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If its not legit, then it shouldn't be considered legal even if you're not tweaking things to your favor, even if you're tweaking things to work against you. Unless you're fighting against another pokesavers, then the opponents aren't equals...

But whatever, its just a children's card game.
 

lordofthereef

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If its not legit, then it shouldn't be considered legal even if you're not tweaking things to your favor, even if you're tweaking things to work against you. Unless you're fighting against another pokesavers, then the opponents aren't equals...

But whatever, its just a children's card game.

Not sure if this was in response to my question, but you didn't answer it if it was. :(
 

ferofax

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This is like playing Monopoly, where legit players play by the rules, but others bend or break the rules, like when they don't like the amount of their monopoly money (don't like the pokemons they get legitimately), they take another whole wad of cash (legal/illegal Pokemon) from another Monopoly board (PokeSav or Pokegen).

Same Monopoly money, just from a different board.

The act of taking money from another board (assuming somebody had two sets of Monopoly board) is just like generating legal Pokemons -- they take all the hard work out. Instead of having to actually play and win the money (or grinding in Pokemon), you just go grab another board and take all the money there and "inject" that into your current game.

But hey, not judging here. Just putting that analogy out there.
 
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DaniPoo

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I agree with ferofax.

Lordofthereef, im not dancig around the fact that Nintendo havnt done anything about it yet.
Im just saying that it's possible that they will cause they really could and they should.
You cant expect them to have sympathy for your 400 hours of exploiting their software.
Only the cheaters would take the fall, and even for them it woulnt be a big one.
Just that it would become impossible to clone pokemon from that point forward. the damage already done cant be undone.
 

FAST6191

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I am not sure I can follow along with that logic ferofax (money in Monopoly is not functionally identical to Pokemon in Pokemon) though it does rather nicely bring me to my general observation.

It seems there are two broad divisions and to bring it in line with the theme of the title it seems to be between the letter of the game and the spirit of the game.

One is considering the functional effects.

The other seems to be the spirit of the game as defined by the game makers is law. Even if that means you have to put in dozens of hours of busywork to get to the interesting part, a problem that has caused many games to fall short of their potential or potential at points. Previous discussions ( http://gbatemp.net/threads/pokémon-casual-childrens-game-or-competitive-strategy.355943/ ) covered my opinion there -- I do not think pokemon represents a particularly interesting strategy as far as game analysis/the mathematics of the goes, but that was a different discussion.

I am not sure either term lines up all that well with the legal equivalents. However in both systems it is quite possible to float between the options with every other breath and a lot of the time it is not really reconcilable which is what we seem to have encountered here.
 
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