Piracy: Common Myths

DS1

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Can you really make that claim? Pending a true ruling on the matter (which given various laws and the lack of one thus far) blaming used games for anything seems roughly equivalent to blaming the magic games buying fairy for skipping out on buying a million copies of your game.
To go further game disc/carts at least are seen to have an inherent value and the ability to be resold which has existed basically since forever and saying if it didn't exist is not even a great thought exercise.

I do not buy new games*. Stores restock (place new orders) based on sales of new games, not on used games. Therefore the developers (or rather the publishers, which directly influence the developers) do not see any profit from me. The best they can do is make a good sequel, that maybe I will buy new.

To the actual games industry (unless you count GameStop as part of the industry, in which case, what's wrong with you?), I am no better than someone who downloaded the game. I am your proverbial magic fairy, and yes, there are THOUSANDS of us, just waiting for some idiot to buy a game new, sell it to GS for $4, and then buy it ourselves for <$20.

Also, what does inherent value have to do with anything? A sold digital copy (which, following your logic, doesn't exist) makes more for the publishers/developers than a used physical copy bought at the same time (say, after the game's print run is over).

*I have bought three new games, but in general, I only buy used.

Most publishers would be jumping for joy if the used games market disappeared overnight. Profit would skyrocket, though maybe not until after they revalued their products... I know I would pretty much quit gaming altogether, but for a few $4 downloads from GOG.
 
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FAST6191

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Sorry that was not where I was heading Arm73.

Certainly if you cut off a supply route you either use an alternative one or do without. However as used games have effectively always been around/available in a manner not entirely dissimilar to their present incarnation (if you have it you can sell it, there are companies that will buy things off you and use it for credit) and are entirely legitimate saying that used sales have an effect worth noting just seems like a massive and stupid leap of logic.

@DS1.
First gamestop are surely part of the industry- they handle preorders (which is not something that just sits entirely in their bank accounts), a lot of promotion, they are a specialised distribution arm to a specialised field* and I am sure I can probably tack on more to that list. *Companies within companies exist with distribution and transport often being a big part of it- the UK's dominant telco also has a pretty substantial fleet/transport operation for instance ( http://www.btfleet.com/home.aspx ). To that end I could possibly make the case that gamestop is tolerated as a partially self funding distribution arm.
Equally I find it difficult to imagine someone somewhere in gamestop's HQ/strategy wing has not lined up sales of their second hand stock and adjusted a an order number for a sequel, gameplay style or some such based upon those.

Raw numbers might say you are of no value to a publisher but there is also promotion, online services (nobody playing your multiplayer game.... oh dear. Johnny second hand comes along and you can say you still have numbers online). Similarly with in game ads and other financial things even somewhat more nebulous concepts of marketing that we get to debate.

Inherent value has everything to do with it- if there is not an inherent/retained value to a product that would then mean you are effectively engaged in a long term rental, lease or something other than a transferable ownership of a license, personally paying several times the odds for a game than I might just about any other form of entertainment for something I can not resell does not sit right with me. I agree the digital stuff could make things interesting and yeah I am sure they would prefer it if they got everything from every sale. The trouble is assuming/wishing/wanting second hand sales not to be a thing is somewhat akin to financial planning by means of expecting you will win the jackpot on a lottery (this was what my hypothetical fairy was about)... though that would be worse as theoretically you could still win the lottery.
Equally the option for long tail sales to mean something where traditionally the best they might have got is gold editions/game of the year or subsequent bundles unless they lucked out and made a modder's game is potentially a very interesting field- we are already seeing android/IOS type places make models out of it.

Similarly if I may branch it into other regions I can resell books, DVDs, music and twisting it a bit disposable goods not necessarily built to be repaired.
 
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RodrigoDavy

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Just to give an alternative point of view. I have always pirated since the PS1 era. When I bought my 3DS it was originally to play pirate DS games, but in the end I started buying legit 3DS games, of course I would not buy all the games that I would pirate in case the 3DS was hacked, but it's been one year and I bought 6 3DS games, a lot of virtual console and eshop titles and some DSiWare titles. Instead of downloading whatever game I thought it was cool, I started buying only what I think it was worth it.

If the 3DS gets hacked I'll probably pirate again though, when you have to save for months to buy a game or wait patiently for an opportunity to buy it in a sale, piracy gets a lot more attractive. :(
 
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FAST6191

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these stories about companies sueing ordinary people over piracy bs gets on my nerves...

Were the cases not resulting in damages way way way out of order with potential losses I might be inclined to disagree somewhat and will disagree on some level of principle- society decided intellectual property is worth something and got around to providing a legal framework for it, in instances those holders of IP have chosen to license it out by various means, breaching the terms of these licenses or failing to have a valid one and using the intellectual property is then considered to be breaking the law, but being civil law in most cases the onus is then on the owner of the IP to do something about it and that takes the form of a civil lawsuit with the aim of reclaiming damages (a.k.a. suing someone that has wronged you).

I have huge issues with many parts of the process, to the point where I would accuse several considerable areas of it to be fundamentally broken, but the underlying theory is sound enough if you can abide the idea of intellectual property (though more importantly society cares for intellectual property and you are subjected to the rules of society).
 

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In the case of USA, many of my professors and some part of the media here agrees that the way the USA deals with intellectual property is fundamentally wrong since they legally consider an IP the same as a physical product when there are several differences between those. Since many IP holders are from the US I can only imagine that these supossedely flawed laws might affect other countries. But I don't remember exactly why they believed this way of treating IP is wrong, but seeing the patent wars and some other episodes involving IP I also think that something is not right.
 

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I am no better than someone who downloaded the game. I am your proverbial magic fairy, and yes, there are THOUSANDS of us, just waiting for some idiot to buy a game new, sell it to GS for $4, and then buy it ourselves for <$20.

It's very difficult to quantify, but it's possible that some of the people that bought the game new may not have done if they couldn't trade it in at all. So it might balance out. The developers make only a small amount on each sale though. The majority goes to the store and the distributor. The store normally double their money on the second hand games as well.

In the case of USA, many of my professors and some part of the media here agrees that the way the USA deals with intellectual property is fundamentally wrong since they legally consider an IP the same as a physical product when there are several differences between those.

They are different, however in terms of stealing the IP of a company the result is actually far worse. Stealing a game from a shop deprives that shop of selling that one copy, their loss is the amount they paid for it (which is usually half the price they sell it for) & the rest of the companies involved got their money. One person got the game for free and their face is on CCTV. If you repeat it then you're likely to get caught, because the shop is the one losing money and they are going to be watching out for you.

Compare that to uploading a game to the internet, where thousands of people can download the game & nobody gets paid. It's hard to track you down and when they do there is uproar because it's "unfair". You might argue that you're only downloading it, but usually it's bittorrent and so you're helping to upload too. You're also driving demand, if nobody was downloading then release groups wouldn't bother uploading.

Just because your professor says it, doesn't mean it's right. A lot of people get hung up on the fact you're not depriving them of anything physical, but you're depriving them the right to make money out of it. Copyright law was introduced to protect your right to make money for each copy.
 
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RodrigoDavy

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Just because your professor says it, doesn't mean it's right. A lot of people get hung up on the fact you're not depriving them of anything physical, but you're depriving them the right to make money out of it. Copyright law was introduced to protect your right to make money for each copy.
You didn't understand a thing that I said. What I meant was to say there may be some flaws in the way the USA see intellectual property not that copyright shouldn't exist. Please... I didn't even say anything about piracy or downloading copyrighted material in my post that you quoted.

What my professors meant was intellectual property and a regular product are not the same thing and, thus, shouldn't be legally treated like they were the same, simply that. Now tell me where the hell did you see the word piracy in this statement? :angry:
 

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I wish I could remember the exact issue of a magazine I had in the early to mid 80's. They had piracy broken down into many categories......the only other terms I can remember beyond "pirate" was "mugger" and "hacker", but there were quite a few terms that they categorized for various types of software pirates. Basically, it would call you a certain name based on HOW you acquired your ill-gotten goodies. While most of it is probably laughable by today's standards, it still was an extremely interesting article. Unfortunately, that was 30 years ago and I don't remember most of the details anymore. I'd love to re-read that article. I had that issue for years stuffed in a box, but tossed all that stuff when I moved, I don't know how many years ago.

The magazine was called either "Video Games" or "Video Games & Computer Entertainment" For some reason, I feel 1984 seems like the year that the issue came out. If nothing else, it would have been an appropriate article to post in this thread for a good read.
 
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DS1

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It's very difficult to quantify, but it's possible that some of the people that bought the game new may not have done if they couldn't trade it in at all. So it might balance out. The developers make only a small amount on each sale though. The majority goes to the store and the distributor. The store normally double their money on the second hand games as well.

1) It's difficult to quantify because it's not a real number. Every used copy is a real number. So these phantom sale losses are pretty insignificant*. I'm speaking on console games alone, though. I don't even know of a store where I live that sells used PC games... part of the reason that the digitization (through sites like GOG or Steam) has been so successful.

2) Developers (and publishers) don't make anything off of the sale, period. They make money off of the shipments, but guess what? They aren't going to ship more copies of something if it isn't selling! So developer X makes a game that only sells 20% of its shipment. Guess how likely that studio is going to get funded to make more games that sell like shit? Someone earlier in the thread had a great post about this.

3) No kidding the stores make more money on second-hand game sales. That's how they stay in business. GameStop's business model is all about used, which is why places like Best Buy are trying to catch up by offering their own used games... But more importantly, who gives a damn about a store's profits? All the GameStops on Earth could be wiped out tomorrow, and it wouldn't affect the industry**, because a bunch of independent stores would pop up in their place. Or everyone would buy from WalMart... either way the publishers would find some way to close the link in the distribution chain. GameStop exists solely to provide cheapskates like me a way to get used games at competitive prices (independent stores are almost always more expensive... though they still have their place because they provide older and rarer titles and hardware).

*Not to mention that any % of piracy in certain countries with large import taxes shouldn't be considered a 'lost sale' - the games are too expensive to have a real consumer culture, as opposed to USA where we actually get our games cheaper than country of origin. Honestly in countries like that, hardware sales are driven by the fact that people are going to get their software for free. Consider those bootleg stores where DS's are packed in with R4s, lol.

**OK, OBVIOUSLY it would affect the industry, but in the theoretical realm where chain stores and mom and pop stores have equivalent inventories, it wouldn't. I'd actually like to see the numbers on market share of new games between GameStop, Best Buy, Amazon, etc.
 

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@DS1.
First gamestop are surely part of the industry- they handle preorders (which is not something that just sits entirely in their bank accounts), a lot of promotion, they a specialised distribution arm to a specialised field* and I am sure I can probably tack on more to that list. *Companies within companies exist with distribution and transport often being a big part of it- the UK's dominant telco also has a pretty substantial fleet/transport operation for instance ( http://www.btfleet.com/home.aspx ). To that end I could possibly make the case that gamestop is tolerated as a partially self funding distribution arm.
Equally I find it difficult to imagine someone somewhere in gamestop's HQ/strategy wing has not lined up sales of their second hand and adjusted a an order number for a sequel, gameplay style or some such based upon those.

My point was that if gamestop didn't exist, something else would... but yes, I agree with you that they are a specialized distribution arm. It helps to have one centralized company VS several mom & pop stores.. though I do know that GameStop's business model is based off used game sales. It's a symbiotic relationship, I suppose, SO insofar as GameStop is helping with promotions and preorders, the phantom "losses" from used game sales are that much less than downloading. So yeah, you are 100% correct, though that really outlines how the industry is so much publisher VS developer.


Raw numbers might say you are of no value to a publisher but there is also promotion, online services (nobody playing your multiplayer game.... oh dear. Johnny second hand comes along and you can say you still have numbers online). Similarly with in game ads and other financial things even somewhat more nebulous concepts of marketing that we get to debate.

In my perfect world, online wouldn't exist, but alas, you are right again. And alas, the industry is not geared towards improving consumer experience, but providing consumer incentive (preorder bonuses VS actual content)

Inherent value has everything to do with it- if there is not an inherent/retained value to a product that would then mean you are effectively engaged in a long term rental, lease or something other than a transferable ownership of a license, personally paying several times the odds for a game than I might just about any other form of entertainment for something I can not resell does not sit right with me.

Nor me, but we lost that fight.

I agree the digital stuff could make things interesting and yeah I am sure they would prefer it if they got everything from every sale. The trouble is assuming/wishing/wanting second hand sales not to be a thing is somewhat akin to financial planning by means of expecting you will win the jackpot on a lottery (this was what my hypothetical fairy was about)... though that would be worse as theoretically you could still in the lottery.

Right, hypothetically every downloaded game = 1 lost sale, as does every used game = 1 lost sale. However add in the fact that GameStop thrives on used sales, and we have actual damage by downloads... retailers and distributors have an odd relationship regarding used/new sales and reduced prices. Like SquareEnix could say, "OK GameStop, you may sell your inventory of FFXXVII for 50% off because it sold like crap, but you must promise to order at least 10,000 copies of FFXXVII-2: The Reckoning". Then they shake hands and we get weird spinoffs.

Equally the option for long tail sales to mean something where traditionally the best they might have got is gold editions/game of the year or subsequent bundles unless they lucked out and made a modder's game is potentially a very interesting field- we are already seeing android/IOS type places make models out of it.

I don't know much about PC games, but this is why I'm in support of DLC (even supposedly 'crappy' DLC like new outfits). Companies can actually profit off of used games, because there is still content that they can profit from. Technically they'd be able to profit from pirated games as well, but unfortunately many recent forms of modding make online inaccessible... so essentially those that would pirate wouldn't get to pay for DLC (though we can assume they'd just try to pirate the DLC too...)
 

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I've bought a ton of games during the last few years even though I could just as well pirate them. It's more about the availability and price of games that prevent most people buying large amounts of them. This is mainly thanks to Gamestop, Amazon, Play and a few other retailers that have games either cheaper than the RRP or sell used games. Sure it could be seen that I don't value the company and/or games at the original price, but in most cases it's the opposite. I just want to support as many companies as possible, but can't be bothered to buy stuff straight away when I have a backlog of around 100 (retail physical) games already.

ps. The US IP laws are flawed in many ways, which can be seen in the ways people try to validate their right to get provisions from someone else's work. Source for a very valid and recent story. Patents are needed for R&D to be worth the effort and investment, but the general problem is the way very vague patents can be acquired (Apple's design and software patents are the easiest and probably most familiar for anyone using a touch screen smart phone).
 

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In light of recent butthurt announcements, I added "piracy kills game systems" to the list.

You should also add that if we abolish democracy and opt for alternative political and social systems piracy automatically disappears. Obviously.... sigh.bmp

Actually don't do that....
 
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This is why in the recent light of things, Republicans in our own Congress in the United States have been wanting to pass such Laws like CISPA or PIPA due to the fact the other reason is because they are protecting the 2% income which "Very High Class" in terms of Occupy Wall Street Protesters, reason Piracy exists, also with the Economy on the tipping point of a Depression, this activity will usually run rampet, and I am not kidding, but Congress was the one who made these laws happen, mostly Republicans, the ones who also want to Kill jobs for the :Low and Middle Class, reason for more Piracy Activity,

Just my 2 Cents on it.
 

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I wish I could remember the exact issue of a magazine I had in the early to mid 80's. They had piracy broken down into many categories......the only other terms I can remember beyond "pirate" was "mugger" and "hacker", but there were quite a few terms that they categorized for various types of software pirates. Basically, it would call you a certain name based on HOW you acquired your ill-gotten goodies. While most of it is probably laughable by today's standards, it still was an extremely interesting article. Unfortunately, that was 30 years ago and I don't remember most of the details anymore. I'd love to re-read that article. I had that issue for years stuffed in a box, but tossed all that stuff when I moved, I don't know how many years ago.

The magazine was called either "Video Games" or "Video Games & Computer Entertainment" For some reason, I feel 1984 seems like the year that the issue came out. If nothing else, it would have been an appropriate article to post in this thread for a good read.


http://archive.org/details/cvg-magazine magazine archive
 

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