ROM Hack Ninokuni: Shikkoku no Madoushi - Translation Project

[Zkarts]

For starters, it is most definitely not open for anyone to edit in order to prevent random entries and/or machine translations. It is, however, open for anyone to view, so that any interested people can have some insight into the structure of the files and the progress so far. If anyone wants to edit it, we give them access to the folder, which will also allow us to monitor everyone's activity, giving us the possibility to undo harmful changes and remove their access to the folder.
I believe it's true that the basis of the translation stems from the JP-ES translation, as we use most tools that he created to export from and import to the rom and although I have seen the arguments about the machine translations, I don't know the full story (there seemed to be a lot of misunderstandings), but I do know that I have come in contact with one machine translator from another project which the entire EN team repulsed.
Also, it is worth noting that the JP-ES translation is nearing completion, meaning that even with problems along the way and a big investment of time, it is possible.

I'm all for constructive criticism and also for getting more people to help out where the remaining active team won't tread (the actual translation...) due to a wish for quality, I would also like to ask that you check out the things you're talking about before you reach your verdict.

 

[GHANMI]

I can't help but wonder if this project has stalled due to its gross mismanagement. From the sound of it, it's nothing more than an offshoot of the JP-ES translation,

pleonex from the Spanish translation is helping with the hacking work he did for the (now nearing release) Spanish translation so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel (he's the one who made Tinkle btw), English translation is otherwise done from Japanese. (at most we'll use the hacking work and maybe the cleaned up textless scans for the manual)

which itself seems to have had its share of problems including an overzealous "producer"

I assume you mean me (I did some graphical stuff and hex editing -obsoleted with pleonex's tools- beyond "producing" and cheerleading as you might imply, but am atm -and pleonex was too until shortly ago- caught into studies and other real life stuff) - it's rather the distinct lack of Japanese to English translators interested in this game (already released with a different vision for PS3).
And we got a Japanese native to help us before he went MIA, as well as some professional translators and currently a couple of translators whose output slowed to a crawl due to real-life issues/
We have got offers to machine translate the English script and fill in the blanks with the different PS3 version, use someone's services to translate the Spanish translation to English, use my (and Zkart's) very rudimentary Japanese skills (enough to read katakana and basic RPG commands) and we declined those unanimously - sorry if that's overzealous for you, but we're old-fashioned and close-minded enough to insist on doing this thing the proper way. French team already released their own Google translated partial patch.

and rampant use of machine translation.

What?! Please do tell.
The couple of screenshoots released were proof of concept ones that aren't even covered by the translated script files (and they were NOT machine translated, their captions were made up and stated to be so explicitely in that post). They don't reflect the current translation progress, but just showing off the English fonts working in-game and the ruby font width fixed.
And we only had actual translators -while they lasted (yes, we checked) fill in the English text column in the spreadsheets (the only thing going to be converted to xml then inserted using our Ninostarter tool in the event script files then the rom is rebuilt with them).

And the entire thing is open for anyone to edit? Really?

It's not open for anyone to edit - rather as read only (and even that is no longer the case -made private- for some files as we're progressing). We're not that crazy.
Even translator and proofreader contributions are separate.
We initially had a readme file as the only file that could be edited by outsiders so that they leave comments or offers to join, and even that got vandalized.

Who do you expect would actually want to join your team at this point? No competent JE-EN translator would want to donate a huge chunk of his/her time towards this.

Thanks a lot for communicating your concerns for us (I'm not being ironic here). Maybe this misunderstanding explains how we haven't been very successful with getting translators to help. Otherwise, all hacking work is virtually complete, only almost all of the text translations (and some image translations) remains to be filled.

I'm a JP-EN translator and I've been watching this "project" for well over a year now, wondering if you guys are ever going to pull it together or should I just go ahead with my own translation, because I've been toying with the idea and I think the game is worth it. But it has to be done right, and it has to be done professionally, and everything about this is everything but. Pardon my frustration, but I think your group has done far more harm here than good.

Pleonex has made a single click export/import tool for this game, which can rebuild the rom on will without having to go through the hassle of recompressing/tile editing the graphics, or repacking the n2d compressed archives within the game.
Any member of our English translation team can have access to this tool to test how the translation shows in-game.

Anyways if you wish, and see yourself fluent enough, you're welcome to join us and help us with the text files or just have a look on them to evaluate the work load for any of your future endeavors (it's the whole text dump - minus the translated parts as we go to avoid work getting stolen).

 

[LoyalZero1]

I'm just also watching myself. But if you decide to do your own project and make a thread about it like this one, post the link so people can watch that one too.

 

[Kohmei]

you're welcome to join us and help us with the text files or just have a look on them to evaluate the work load for any of your future endeavors (it's the whole text dump - minus the translated parts as we go to avoid work getting stolen)

This is kind of what I'm talking about in regard to open translation, and the general management of the project. If the game is translated a little by person A, this sentence by person B, this segment of the game by persons C and D, and the rest filled in by person E, it's going to feel very disjointed as different translators will have different styles and refer to things in different ways. Even 2 different translators working on the same project have to work together very, very closely to end up with a final product that feels cohesive. In your mind, Japanese might be something that translates to English in a one-to-one equivalency, but translation is unfortunately much less a science and more an art. If two unrelated people painted separate segments of the Mona Lisa, the final product wouldn't be worth looking at. You might eventually find someone willing to do it, but I can't attest to how good they'll be at the job.

Furthermore, keeping this English project open without a translator is something like keeping a lemonade stand open without lemonade. You might have a perfectly good table and chair, but until someone brings some actual lemonade you're just holding them hostage because of your personal insistence to be involved with a project that you are only tangentially related to. It honestly seems like you want to ride the coattails of someone else's hard work just because you're in possession of a hacking tool, when what you should actually do is release the tool and let people do what they want with it. If someone makes an actual translation with it, I'm sure the author of the tool will be properly and fully credited.

I didn't come here meaning to argue with anyone. I am just very frustrated with this entire situation.

 

[Cyan]

If a translator was willing to do all of the translation from start, why not join the project then?
The team need to work together with translator and hackers, there's often things to tweak or fix with the text length/width, window size, specific chatacters (accentuated characters not in the game which need a new font map etc.) I think both should work together, and not only the translator using a free tool and work alone with what the tool let him do and either find workaround or give up if the tool is not good enough.

If you want to translate it, you are not forced to use previous translator's work, because like you said it's probably random word choices and without cohesion.
If you work on your own side, you would have re-translated everything anyway, so why not do it from the start as a team?

The issue is not that the project is using multiple translators to do the job, but that translator are giving up or disappearing with only part of the script translated, and everything need to be started over each time. What tells you wouldn't disappear too if you start translating and deleting all the previous work? nobody can foretell if it will be completed or be another incomplete job.


Speaking of cohesion in text, do you use CAT tools (Lingo, déjà vu, etc.)? are there free online-synch capable tools that multiple-translators could use to harmonize words and sentences when working on the same project? Or even offline ones.
The few I found are shareware (and expansive for an unoficial fan translation, 500 to 2k$). Excel is often used, but that doesn't auto-search/alert/suggest translations based on existing text.

 

[GHANMI]

Sent you a PM regarding the proofreading part, but I realized then I must answer those concerns in public to make things clear.
That aside anyone can translate this game on his own (using Tinke it's not even hard).
It's up to pleonex to do what he sees fit with his tools ultimately, and the involved team members did hard time-consuming work and were not "tangentially involved" or "holding the project hostage".

No intention to drop this project either after getting so many hurdles out of the way.
We do not have a project thread open yet because there would be not much point in showing off yet another Hotroit screenshot (not much story text is translated, and I see using a Moya Tower screenshot with made up text gave out the idea we were doing machine translation) ...
We'd love a new translator to join us so that this may hasten the process a bit and this game may be one day finished.

Cyan - We have four files covering side NPC talk as well as some of the introduction script translated (+150 script files total), story text wise. Most of what we have translated is some of the system text.

 

[Zkarts]

I understand your frustration, of course. I joined the project in hopes of seeing this game translated and although I've put quite a lot of time into it, we've pretty much stranded due to a lack of motivated translators that will stay for the long haul (736 text files of differing lengths and then a load of images that need translating). I have to admit that although we're hoping for a quality translation, we're also getting nowhere without translators. In hopes of finding a qualified, motivated translator, we have an "open" translation, but even when we find one (we did) they all tend to vanish into thin air regardless of how motivated they are.

Being Dutch myself with a decent grasp of the English language and a basis in Japanese, I understand that having different translators translate bits and pieces yields a very inconsistent, incoherent mess (I've seen some of the results of some translators...) and we were hoping to combat that by having proofreaders of which we have quite a few ready (or had, I don't know how many are still active after such a lack of activity), but of course, they too can only do so much. We were hoping to finish the first two areas to release a demo to motivate and draw people in, but so far, the first area is almost finished (and there's a lot here and there, e.g. item lists & descriptions and overlay translations).
That is, text-wise. I've gotten a big chunk of the most common images done, as that's my original role, although lately I mostly find myself working with pleonex to get the importing working and looking right and proofreading for spelling, punctuation and consistency.

I have put a lot of time into the project, so yes, I'd like to be involved, but I'm also quite open-minded. If you have a good idea or you want to give the whole thing a shot on your own and you'd like tools for that, then it's no problem to send a message and we can figure something out. I'm not the owner of the actual hacking tools, however, so I can't say anything about those, but I'm willing to share the things I've made or done. But seeing as we do already have some things done (google drive folder, edited/translated images, tools), I'd say it's a waste not to cooperate and use them one way or another.

 

[Kohmei]

Ultimately I'm just sharing my thoughts on why I'm personally very reluctant to join. Whether this can be extrapolated to others out there or not, who knows. I'm definitely not asking for handouts and wish you luck. Doing it on my own is something I've been mulling over in my head for a couple years now. Mostly I've been hoping your project would be successful so that it would obviate the need for mine, but the more time that passes, the more I wonder if this is something that's specifically waiting for me.

 

[Auryn]

"Doing it on my own is something I've been mulling over in my head for a couple years now."

Admitting you are to lazy to do it even before starting??

As i see things here, you have exactly 3 choices:
1) Be quiet and wait for somebody to do the translation.
2) Join the group and help them out (even i can understand you / somebody don't want to join a project for motive x)
3) maybe the best choice for all: Ghanmi sure is ready to give you all the script dump, translate it and publish it online for all to get.
If this group (or another) finds your translation good, they still can use it and insert it in the game.

I don't want to attack you personally but in my life/online, i saw many people same you: big mouth but did/do/will do nothing to help.
Believe me, I sometimes include myself in this group of people because of motive x or motive y, I still not finished / released my first project ever announced online.....it's been almost 20 years.

 

[Kohmei]

It's not so much laziness as a desire to stay in control of my hard work, and the brunt of the project. I'm not submitting my translation to the whim of some non-native speaker to edit as they see fit. That should be the biggest red flag right there. This is an English project, yes? How many native English speakers are there on the team? I don't see any here.

It would be preposterous of me to come in here unannounced and demand helm of the project, so what does that leave me with exactly? The only alternatives I see are either a) do it myself, or b) shut up and hope this project materializes, however unlikely. Either way, I will be shutting up now, and I'm sorry to have disturbed you.

 

[GHANMI]

If I might chime in a bit:
I, Zkarts and pleonex are not native English speakers (nor is scott ender, the very first mia translator).
We're not however involved in the actual proofreading process beyond occasional terminology and typo fixes.

As for Kohmei, I spoke with him on PM and he explained that he'd like to be in full control of the script, meaning scrapping all of our earlier work (something I strongly disagree with since it's a decision already made before seeing the already done script)

Some of the text that would have to be scrapped:

A short stick of wood with no immediately evident use.
A mysterious egg that seems to travel from person to person. Nobody knows what makes it move.
A local delicacy in Babanasia, the babana peel is unfortunately quite useless in every other region of the world.
A fish known for its dramatic facial expressions. It always looks surprised when it's caught.
An extremely hard, calcified bone of unknown origins. It's the perfect snack for a dog.
A curious moustache-shaped stone. Some people mistakenly think that it's enchanted to help speed up facial hair growth, but it actually helps its owner recall past experiences in great detail.
Hitting someone over the head with this mallet can clear up any addled thoughts they may be having.
Recovery from Confusion.

and no one being allowed to touch the script (even the native English speaker proofreaders we got in touch with earlier - hi there ) as well as rejecting the idea of a translation done by multiple people even after proofreading and style unifying (in fact, a certain translator I contacted declined to participate because of this reason as well as a lack of attachment to the game).

Even though it goes against team work dynamics and even professional standards set by the official localization industry - it's an opinion, and I can't help but respect it.
Kohmei would rather see this project as a solo project for him, and settle for nothing less.
Nothing wrong with that for him (Kaji of Tales of Hearts, as well as Cless (Phantasian Productions) have been following that) as incompatible with our way of doing things as it may be.

Kohmei: I realize I'm not the best placed person to make such suggestions, but you could use your enthusiasm for other much higher profile untranslated DS gems (while you're waiting for us to either give up or get something out)?
Nora to Toki also uses a touchscreen mechanic for spells, and Keroro RPG should be an easier, shorter distraction... and that's only the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure you'll find answers and help here on the technical side for any problem you may face while translating DS games (PSP to a lesser degree, too). As I said before, Tinke is a good starting point.

 

[Kohmei]

That's a very negative and inaccurate picture you've painted for my vision of the project, but I suppose I deserve it. Cheers

 

[GHANMI]

That's a very negative and inaccurate picture you've painted for my vision of the project, but I suppose I deserve it. Cheers

I'm really sorry then, negativity was not the intent - that's how I see it, and I fully respect it (lots of people solo'ed translations including Ted Woosley and their work and esteem is none the less for it). Nothing wrong about what you said or what you think -even though it's not really compatible with our work as you put it best before-
Though, I'd really love to see an RPG translation from you - lots of forgotten gems, and the enthusiasm you're giving away into your posts about the hobby -besides being rare- seems really promising
Use Tinke and its hex editing features and start peeking in the games of your choice - if you need help, you know where to come

 

[Kohmei]

The thing is, I'm not even against working with others, and I did not say that the existing script would necessarily need to be scrapped, but at the least be subject to my review and potential revisions. This communication error is something I fear a byproduct of the lack of native-level English understanding that will inevitably bring about further disputes between us. It's not that I don't want to work with anyone else. It's that I don't want to work with you, personally, and I certainly do not wish to work under you.

 

[GHANMI]

The thing is, I'm not even against working with others, and I did not say that the existing script would necessarily need to be scrapped, but at the least be subject to my review and potential revisions. This communication error is something I fear a byproduct of the lack of native-level English understanding that will inevitably bring about further disputes between us. It's not that I don't want to work with anyone else. It's that I don't want to work with you, personally, and I certainly do not wish to work under you.

This is kind of what I'm talking about in regard to open translation, and the general management of the project. If the game is translated a little by person A, this sentence by person B, this segment of the game by persons C and D, and the rest filled in by person E, it's going to feel very disjointed as different translators will have different styles and refer to things in different ways. Even 2 different translators working on the same project have to work together very, very closely to end up with a final product that feels cohesive. In your mind, Japanese might be something that translates to English in a one-to-one equivalency, but translation is unfortunately much less a science and more an art. If two unrelated people painted separate segments of the Mona Lisa, the final product wouldn't be worth looking at. You might eventually find someone willing to do it, but I can't attest to how good they'll be at the job.

Apologies for my low-level English comprehension skills then.
Best of wishes for you to find your acceptable, ideal team members to work with on your future translation endeavors.

 

[Kohmei]

Sorry if it sounded personal. I just think the director of a project that is mainly concerned with language should be a native speaker of the target language. If you think phrasing A sounds better and I think phrasing B sounds better, going with phrasing A is not going to leave a pleasant taste in my mouth, especially when you consider that it isn't really your place to argue. And that's what it all boils down to. You've arbitrarily assigned yourself this position, and it isn't my place to argue because it's not my project. All I can do is make my own.

You seem to be better at quoting me than communicating ideas, so I'm just going to have to assume what you're implying here, but again... I didn't rule out the possibility of working with another translator: I merely stated that this would have to be something done with a very open and steady communication stream. Translators that have since abandoned your project are very obviously people I cannot communicate with.

 

[GHANMI]

We're not really a hierarchy with a "leader" that just sits and order people around, and as I said before the non-native English speakers know their place and aren't involved in the translation or proofreading process beyond typos and correcting some terminology (so that a given word isn't romanized in multiple ways throughout the script). It's somewhat a democracy - we don't have a "leader" either, and all major decisions are taken after consulting together about it.
I'm the one with the word diarrhea so me answering questions is more convenient for everyone involved
Just saying to keep things clear since my silence on the matter could give wrong ideas about the situation.

I'm not trying to convince you to join either.
I understood perfectly your points on contention about this particular project (consistency, control over the script, lack of confidence about work ethics first alluding to machine translations then non-natives being involved in rewriting sentences for tone and not just minor single word corrections for grammar and terminology, and I think you mentioned on PM that you see this translation as a JP>Spanish>English sham put by a no-name Spanish team to gain some internet fame).
Some of it may stem from (sometimes borderline offensive) assumptions (wrong assumptions, might I add), but it's a valid concern and someone who we tried to reach to also declined because of the consistency/tone part (doesn't mean others saw it as an absolute deal breaker, but to each his own and this world would be a boring place if everyone thought the same way).

You disagree with us and refuse to join because of this. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, and you're free to do whatever you want. You're not wrong for wanting to have a project where you're having control over all variables. I'm not being sarcastic either, or blaming you, or saying your way of thinking is necessarily wrong. Honest.

 

[Kohmei]

The last bit I said about the Spanish team meant neither that you guys are "no-name" or that you are putting on a sham here. It's hard to explain how I see it exactly, but basically... I assume the reasoning behind doing a joint language project like this is along the lines of, "well, most of the components in these two translations will be the same, so it would save everyone a lot of time and effort if we just combine the projects, since the biggest variable will be the script which is essentially interchangeable."

This is actually really solid reasoning, and there's nothing I even disagree with, per se. I think the problem happens when that interchangeable part, i.e. the translation, becomes such a disproportionately large chunk of the pie that it makes the other pieces look more like they are the constituents to it instead of the other way around. I'm looking at the prospect of several hundred work hours and I'm not just going to stand idly by while it gets hacked away at. Not to say that I wouldn't agree with some changes, I'm in fact very open to the idea, as a project of this size is extremely easy to get too close to and thus lose the ability to see faults for what they are. On the other hand, I will have reservations, and after putting so much time into something, it's going to go the way I want it to or I wouldn't have done it to begin with.

A democracy sounds great, and even someone who simply orders people around, if done to a coherent, well thought-out plan, is not to be underestimated in a successful project. But... ultimately there are too many questions for something I'd be committing such a great amount of effort to. Recently, perhaps you're aware of the Final Fantasy Type-0 fiasco where there director of that project acted out of self-interest and against the wishes of the group members in releasing an unfinished and morally dubious patch to the public? Not that I suspect or wish to accuse you of such a thing, but I might start losing sleep at night worrying about it.

As for my erroneous assumptions, there is only this thread to blame as I have nothing else to go on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you Jefelin, the leader of the Spanish project? You've credited yourself as both director and supervisor of that translation (I'm not even sure those roles are that different in the limited context of a fan translation), which seems to indicate to me that you do indeed think of it as a hierarchical structuring. All of the assumptions made about the project actually stem from something you or Jefelin said in this very thread, including using machine translation and then "smoothing" it out, or translating to English from the Spanish translation. It's hard to follow a 30-page, 3 year old thread, so I'm sorry that this is all very hard to follow, but that does point to a fault in management, which was my initial critique: this project is being poorly managed.

At the least, you should have some kind of centralized platform, e.g. a blog or website, which explains your methods and goals for the project, who's involved, what they do, and what you still need. Without it, this thread is your presentation to prospective translators, myself included.

So, I'm not sure if I've come full circle yet but I'm going to try to wing it anyway, in that no, I didn't mean insult to the Spanish team, but it seemed to me (thanks to my bad assumptions) that the Spanish team was just kind of hanging around waiting for a sucker to show up, pop in his work into the Spanish version, and put "By Jefelin and co" into the credits as a way of doubling your investment. That seemed really unfair to me, but if it turns out I was completely wrong, then it was my fault entirely. I still think our aims are rather incompatible, but I will keep things in mind as I proceed with evaluating the prospect of translating this.

 

[GHANMI]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you Jefelin, the leader of the Spanish project? You've credited yourself as both director and supervisor of that translation (I'm not even sure those roles are that different in the limited context of a fan translation), which seems to indicate to me that you do indeed think of it as a hierarchical structuring. All of the assumptions made about the project actually stem from something you or Jefelin said in this very thread, including using machine translation and then "smoothing" it out, or translating to English from the Spanish translation. It's hard to follow a 30-page, 3 year old thread, so I'm sorry that this is all very hard to follow, but that does point to a fault in management, which was my initial critique: this project is being poorly managed.

At the least, you should have some kind of centralized platform, e.g. a blog or website, which explains your methods and goals for the project, who's involved, what they do, and what you still need. Without it, this thread is your presentation to prospective translators, myself included.

So, I'm not sure if I've come full circle yet but I'm going to try to wing it anyway, in that no, I didn't mean insult to the Spanish team, but it seemed to me (thanks to my bad assumptions) that the Spanish team was just kind of hanging around waiting for a sucker to show up, pop in his work into the Spanish version, and put "By Jefelin and co" into the credits as a way of doubling your investment. That seemed really unfair to me, but if it turns out I was completely wrong, then it was my fault entirely. I still think our aims are rather incompatible, but I will keep things in mind as I proceed with evaluating the prospect of translating this.

I'm not Jefelin. I'm certainly not Spanish either (I learned some rudiments in high school but by now I forgot most of it).
I started here with some unbelievably stupid noobish posts asking about why Notepad doesn't edit roms well, then an undub patch for a DS game (even managed to unearth a debug room in the process), and I have released other NES/SNES translations elsewhere (not in English though). I'm somewhat familiar with some basic rudimentary romhacking elements and I'm hoping one day to learn c6518 (already started), mips and arm - as well as Japanese.
I'm ashamed of talking about it now, but there was a walkthrough I wrote for this game in horribly broken English while sleep-deprived. But I got better.

Jefelin is a Spanish fellow who proved to have a good grasp of Japanese to produce a translation (after all, the Spanish translation is currently basically finished - and doesn't seem made up or babelfish'ed, and they had 40% ready before the PS3 version was localized at all)
He started translating the game for Spanish (as I said, the text editing is technically easy for this game) and showed off some of his progress here.
He uploaded a video with an English version of the into as a proof of concept... using verbatim the script from an unfinished English youtube walkthrough.
And generally writing in a not so good English for what's expected from a translator working on an English version.

After a small flame war, he left gbatemp and continued his project.
He's still alive and kicking (and rocking, may I add, just Spanish-only) in the Spanish translation scene, as of 29/9/2014. And you're right, he indeed says he's the lead of the Spanish project.
You can find him here: http://www.espalteam.com/foros/showthread.php?t=12114

pleonex is the mastermind behind the very useful Tinke tool that's an all-purpose tool to handle DS rom file systems.
He reverse engineered many formats as part of the tool making possible translations for stuff like Gyakuten Kenji 2, Tokimeki Memorial Girl's Side 3rd Story, and this game (had n2d compressed files - I invite you to get the latest Tinke release and open the Ninokuni rom with it and check the room map viewer he coded for some eye candy)
He's Spanish and got eventually with touch with Jefelin - continuing their Spanish translation.
I'm honored that he's now with us for the English translation effort.

---

off topic: This game has tons of unused content on the cartridge. It's amazing.
For example, the desert just before the second town (Babanasia/Al-Mamoon) was originally intended to be its own dungeon. Hotroit was also bigger, there are still some maps in wireframe for the streets that extend in the backgroundsseen in Crumpet's Place. I mentioned before how there are remants of a partial implementation of the Magic Master book in the DS version as a digital book like in the PS3 one, but there are also the events from the demo versions.
The zones from the game where you only explore a part of it, are often fully drawn.

 

[Kohmei]

In that case, I definitely made some very incorrect assumptions. Did you personally have any part in the Spanish translation?