GCW Zero Meets Its Goal, supported games announced

Johnny on Flame

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Um, not trying to knock the Zero since I intend on getting one based on what it CAN do, but the Japanese characters in that last screenshot look broken and aren't supposed to look like that in game.

It's a screen that appears ONCE during the game and can easily be read. There's not much to it either tbh.
 

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Don't let something so little as this problem ruin a great game for you, Rydian.
I know the only issue for SoM is the selection text which is why I only used it as an example once (since that's the only issue it has).

Oh my god I can't play my games! They're unplayable without blending effects/unreadeable text!
PN1vzTY.png
If the translucency is working then the emulator is rendering at the right internal resolution and then downscaling with a filter to approximate how the TV would display it.

That's fine for game that use it for this, and it's good to know that the emulator actually DOES support it.

However for things that would want to display the extra data (instead of blend it), it'll cause a problem.

SoM's NPC text wasn't an issue.

Give a chance for the device BEFORE you judge it.
I did.
http://gbatemp.net/threads/gcw-zero-vs-psp-running-snes-star-fox.341178/

I would outline the timeline of how I got excited, then disappointed, but since I've posted it so often in this thread already I'm sick of it.

And I'm pretty sure your vibrator can't render blending effects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor

my responses were intended to further a debate on the idea of not wanting something that does a thousand-and-1 things because 5 of them do not meet your expectations
And that's why I used the vibrator example. I do not care about those other things so I will not buy the device for them, just like I do not give a shit about a vibrator so I will not buy a vibrator for it's functions. Also the Vacuum example, and the PS3 example... the devices would be bought for a specific purpose, if the device doesn't meet that purpose it won't be bought.

it seems that you may have assumed, that i attempted to attack you as a person, for your unique beliefs.
My "unique" beliefs? Right, check out the comparison screenshots posted below.

in all honesty, i was utterly flabbergasted to find out that you would not consider enjoying a zero based on your reasons
And that's why I tried using vibrators, the PS3, and a vacuum cleaner as examples of the whole "people will not buy products they don't think will do the job" idea.

and that most probably played a part in the crafting of my sentences. i have always felt that you were more of an experimental gamer who spent time exploring unique games and experiences.
Everything I'm interested in is a port or emulator for games that exist on another system. I don't buy potential entertainment. I'm not one of those people that will go buy a device and then wait for the games to come out. I used the 3DS as an example for this, I don't have a 3DS because nothing that's out for it interests me.

after all our discussions and interactions, i had no idea that you would present such a defensive stance for your view.
I'm on the defense because you're on the attack. You're not getting on anybody else except for me about this.

we will never see eye-to-eye on this, because to me the issues with the zero are extremely trivial.

-another world
And I posted that the issues with the Cave Story port on the PSP are trivial as an example.

A few more screenshots.

6.png
SD3's NPC text issues in other emulators were cased by mode-switching on a screen, not hi-res things. Zoom in on the text and you'll note that it's rendered at the right resolution. The mode switch is used for the background gradient instead, IIRC (which doesn't suffer from any blending).

Might as well show me a screenshot from Super Mario World, 'cause that's not a trouble spot. :P

As Palom said, look at the text. It's missing pixels because it's rendering ~512 pixels of data and then trying to push it into a 256-wide space.

It's not just the text either, the graphics suffer too. I scaled your image up 300% nearest-neighbor and just took a screenshot of what it looks like with proper output, and here's a comparison.

anim.gif


(Animated GIF, wait for it to load.)

Notice that the grass and the columns are noticeably degraded in the GCW Zero's screenshot, too.

It's a screen that appears ONCE during the game and can easily be read. There's not much to it either tbh.
Try using the game's menu screen...

anim2.gif


(Again, animated GIF, wait for it to load.)

Not only is the background noticeably degraded in quality, but the text once again suffers. Check out the "m" in "Amazoness" near the upper-right of the screen, the middle bar in the "m" is visually lost.
 

Another World

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rydian, you can stop now. you obviously have lost sight of this conversation. you are taking what I write, gathering your own meaning form it, and then attacking me. Please stop.

i never said your unique beliefs mean your take on this game. no, you assumed that. i was trying to be civil and give you some respect.

i've no idea what the fuck your problem is. i try to explain how you misinterpreted what i wrote, and you attack me for that. then i explain how we lost sight of the debate, and you attack me for that.

you could have easily replied stating that you do not see the value in thousands of other games, that you only enjoy a few games and if they aren't working correctly that you will not support the system. there was no need to be such a jerk about it. this entire conversation is just stupid at this point. it derailed the entire thread and the discussion. what did it prove? proved that we can't communicate.

-another world
 
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Rydian

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Rydian, you can stop now. You obviously have lost sight of this conversation.
How? You seem so curious as to why I won't buy the device, so I'm visually showing why I won't buy the device.

You are taking what I write, gathering your own meaning form it, and then attacking me. Please stop.
And I would have preferred you stop getting on my ass for NOT wanting to buy a device, but that hasn't stopped you for two pages. Even other members have commented on it.

You keep on asking me what the problems are, so I keep showing you what the problems are. If you don't want the answers, don't ask the questions. :P

i never said your unique beliefs mean your take on this game. no, you assumed that. i was trying to be civil and give you some respect.

-another world
Alright, then what did that phrase mean?


EDIT: BBcode fail.
 

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor
And that's why I used the vibrator example. I do not care about those other things so I will not buy the device for them, just like I do not give a shit about a vibrator so I will not buy a vibrator for it's functions. Also the Vacuum example, and the PS3 example... the devices would be bought for a specific purpose, if the device doesn't meet that purpose it won't be bought.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
 

Johnny on Flame

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I don't understand how it was supposed to be a joke since it's obvious that a vibrator has no graphical display at all, but okay.

Anyways, I won't take this any further, I don't see this being fruitful for any of us, correct me if you will, but this sounds like nitpicking for me. We made a choice based on what we judged to be a good compromise, it's all over our FAQ the reasons why we made this choice.
 

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Anyways, I won't take this any further, I don't see this being fruitful for any of us, correct me if you will, but this sounds like nitpicking for me. We made a choice based on what we judged to be a good compromise, it's all over our FAQ the reasons why we made this choice.

Don't relight the fire bro, Rydain doesn't want the device as it will not emulate what he wants to play correctly, It doesn't matter the reason why GCW did what they did it wont change the fact that Rydain doesn't want it lol :P

If you want it that's cool get it :P
 

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Anyways, I won't take this any further, I don't see this being fruitful for any of us, correct me if you will, but this sounds like nitpicking for me. We made a choice based on what we judged to be a good compromise, it's all over our FAQ the reasons why we made this choice.
I know it's there.
They mention cost each time, even in the FAQ on the kickstarter page itself.
And the only reason that's valid (for emulation) is cost.
If a device can render internally at hi-res, then it should have no problem displaying hi-res. Nearest-neighbor/2:1 scaling has been considered a free action even on mobile GPUs for years. The PSP can even do it with it's GPU, and that's a 2004 GPU. Modern chips like the GCW Zero is using are much more powerful.

The only time a higher resolution causes slowdown is when the higher resolution is what's being rendered internally/natively. This would not affect sprite/scanline-based emulators that scale up. This WOULD affect native homebrew that do resolution-dependant rendering (Descent, etc.), but going 320x240 over 640x480 is forced quality loss, while letting the games render at 320x240 scaled would let them run as fast as on a native 320x240 display, without hurting other software.

You really should start reading, man, or you make these weird assumptions...

You know, just like you think I'm "nitpicking" even though the images I provided (contrasted to the ones you provided off the device itself) showed clear problems.
 

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I know it's there.And the only reason that's valid (for emulation) is cost.


You really should start reading, man, or you make these weird assumptions...

You know, just like you think I'm "nitpicking" even though the images I provided (contrasted to the ones you provided off the device itself) showed clear problems.

How is "cost" valid only for emulation? Only a handful games used /actual/ hi-res screen modes on the SNES, even the ones that used it can be played just fine. Also noteworthy is that most CRT screens didn't display an exactly crisp image in these resolutions. If you use a higher resolution, you push more data around, that has a RAM bandwidth cost, which is translated into more battery usage. (GPU scaling uses more battery, IPU scaling uses more battery, etc., and keep in mind that there's much more to emulation than just snes!)

And how is that not nitpicking? you're finding minor issues to bash the product (It affects only a handful of titles/screens, and their actual effects towards gameplay are less than minor), not only that, you also provided dubious evidence about the emulation of the faux transparency effects employed by a few SNES titles.

Don't relight the fire bro, Rydain doesn't want the device as it will not emulate what he wants to play correctly, It doesn't matter the reason why GCW did what they did it wont change the fact that Rydain doesn't want it lol :P

If you want it that's cool get it :P

I don't want to force anything down his throat- buying it or not is a personal choice I can respect, but the same way he's got the right to voice his opinions I have mine to reply, and I will reply if there's need to do so.

And I already own one myself, which I made use of in order to back my statements and provide counter-evidence.
 

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If I may hijack the thread for a bit; what are the system's capabilities outside of games and emulation? Media playback, web browser, support/clients for internet services (mail clients, IM, VoIP, Youtube, Flash support, etc. etc.), alternative OS? Are there any such apps ready or in development? What's the output resolution on the HDMI-out, is it full HD? Will apps be able to use the full HD (if available)? Does it support USB hubs? Has any of this been answered already and I overlooked it?

Thank you.
 

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How is "cost" valid only for emulation?
They listed multiple reasons, and of the reasons they listed, only "cost" is takes effect in emulation (since it changes the system's emulation capabilities on the whole in exchange for being cheaper).

If the translucency is Kirby's Dream Land 3 works, then the emulator is already rendering at the full resolution internally and then downscaling it for output (more or less), so outputting the full resolution to begin with shouldn't be an issue.

Only a handful games used /actual/ hi-res screen modes on the SNES
And unfortunately most of those games are the ones I want to play.

Like I said earlier, if this was a portable N64 that wouldn't play OoT or Super Mario 64 properly I bet people would have a different outlook... just because the games I care about aren't the games YOU care about, MY reasons for not buying the device are invalid?

even the ones that used it can be played just fine.
I prefer to play games without messed-up text and missing special effects. This is a reason I was looking for a portable emulation device to surpass my PSP in the first place, it's an older device with a low resolution and suffers many of the same issues (when the scaling's not being used).

Also noteworthy is that most CRT screens didn't display an exactly crisp image in these resolutions.
Not only is a bit of blurring preferable to entirely-missing pixels, but many games were developed with the blurring in mind (thus the recent popularity of things like CRT-style shaders for emulators on the PC where it's viable).

CRT shaders aren't really viable on portables anyways due to the screen being smaller anyways, I'm just pointing out there's efforts to recreate it.

If you use a higher resolution, you push more data around
It's already doing the higher resolution internally, it's just unable to display it due to the screen's limitation, which is why data goes missing.

It's not an issue with the device's software, it's an issue with the hardware, and it's not a power issue. It's simply due to the screen resolution being too small to present everything that's being rendered. This isn't something that can be fixed with a software update, it needs a hardware revision, which is why I'm not buying the Zero (with the presented specs).

that has a RAM bandwidth cost, which is translated into more battery usage.
No it's not. All RAM is electrically powered all the time, and the difference between writing to "free" RAM and "used" RAM doesn't even exist on a physical level (which is what's behind technologies like superfetch).

(GPU scaling uses more battery,
If the GPU is downclocked by default (most likely is) and needs to be clocked higher in order to do it (depends on the total power of the GPU), then yes. If not, then no. Is the GPU used scalable on the device purposely (say, the clock rate able to be set via homebrew), or does it only change the GPU clock in reaction to it's rendering load?

I have a hard time believing something as modern and powerful as the GCW Zero would need to clock higher in order to scale an image nearest-neighbor, especially since the PSP (much older and simpler hardware) can scale filtered and unfiltered using it's media engine (dedicated media decoder chip).

Does it turn most functions of the GPU off (akin to C sleep states) and just use framebuffer graphics when the GPU isn't needed or something?

IPU scaling uses more battery, etc.,
I doubt you're referring to the Invisible Pink Unicorn, was this a typo?

and keep in mind that there's much more to emulation than just snes!)
Which is why it's possible that they knew about this issue but deemed it a worthwhile sacrifice to make the device cheaper (and so appeal to people more easily, eat into less of their initial capital, etc.)

And how is that not nitpicking? you're finding minor issues
text.gif


to bash the product
Bash? I've stated multiple times the GCW Zero is impressively powerful, but I will not personally buy this device because it cheaps out on the screen and takes a hit on the emulation front because of it (which is ironic as this device was specifically designed to not repeat the mistakes of the Chinese devices, but this is one such mistake).

(It affects only a handful of titles/screens and their actual effects towards gameplay are less than minor)
Going from 1080p to 480p on a 360 game has a less-than-minor effect on the actual gameplay too, so are people wasting their time in specifically buying an HDTV since they can still play the game at the lower quality? :P

not only that, you also provided dubious evidence about the emulation of the faux transparency effects employed by a few SNES titles.
I wasn't aware that the emulator rendered at the higher resolution internally, so for games that don't attempt to display at that resolution (and count on the blur inherent in NTSC video) the special effects will work fine. Obviously my stance there has changed, since I've mentioned multiple times that it's already doing it internally (as the screenshot showed).

However for the text example, I used a screenshot from a GCW to show the problem.
 

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/huge post here/

I respect your decision, if this device has minor issues you're not willing to go through, then why fork cash on it? What I ask of you is to check the validity of your claims before you post them on a public board.

- RAM R/W is not as simple as you make it.
- In embedded platforms you must trim resource usage as much as possible. A 640x480 screen would require the vast majority of games and homebrew to be upscaled. Too much for battery usage.
- What does superfetch have to do with the case in topic? Afaik SUPERFETCH precaches commonly used assets into memory to speed up whatever uses these components.
- IPU stands for Image Processing Unit.
- Games using translucency uses the hi-res modes as a "blending buffer"- so in the end they're effectively "lo-res", think multiple layers on the same buffer. Outputting said games on 640x480 properly requires upscaling. (Emulation wizards feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in this one.)

> The vast majority of emulators won't use anything bigger than 320x240, and even the ones that does, only a few games make use of hi-res, this is not a dedicated "Seiken Densetsu 3" emulator. <
 

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What I ask of you is to check the validity of your claims before you post them on a public board.
I didn't think that the emulator would render at the full resolution and then scale it down.

I thought it'd be like this... http://s4.postimage.org/uhnnxhv8d/256.png

Instead of taking this... http://s3.postimage.org/iwqtbm9sz/512.png And scaling it down.

I was obviously wrong on how it handles that, but I had no indication it'd do it in the first place.

- RAM R/W is not as simple as you make it.
Elaborate then. :P

- In embedded platforms you must trim resource usage as much as possible. A 640x480 screen would require the vast majority of games and homebrew to be upscaled. Too much for battery usage.
How would it? Current devices upscale nearest-neighbor all the time without a drain.

- What does superfetch have to do with the case in topic? Afaik SUPERFETCH precaches commonly used assets into memory to speed up whatever uses these components.
Yes, and it can do that because extra RAM usage is not extra battery usage.

- IPU stands for Image Processing Unit.
A standalone processor to do that opposed to running it on a CPU thread or with GPU instructions? The specs don't mention it.

- Games using translucency uses the hi-res modes as a "blending buffer"- so in the end they're effectively "lo-res", think multiple layers on the same buffer. Outputting said games on 640x480 properly requires upscaling. (Emulation wizards feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in this one.)
Yup, but the pixel placement's the same as a game not using that, so it'd be scaled up anyways (as the scaling is done on the final composited frame without the translucency information as it's already been applied).

> The vast majority of emulators won't use anything bigger than 320x240, and even the ones that does, only a few games make use of hi-res, this is not a dedicated "Seiken Densetsu 3" emulator. <
This device is supposed to fix the mistakes of the previous chinese devices, but by cheaping out on the display, they're making the same type of mistake. "It'll play less games properly, but it's cheaper". Hey, does that sound familiar?

"Not including an SA-1 chip will make this SNES cart cheaper and only a few games won't run properly."
"Going with slower flash stroage will make this tablet cheaper and only a few games won't run properly."
"Not including RTS will make this GBA cart cheaper and only a few games won't run properly."etc.
 

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It's not RAM usage itself- but the fact that you move four times more data every frame, and the fact that in most games you're required to do upscaling in order to fit. Did you even read what I wrote?
Also, I have internal documents on the JZ4770 soc and on the LCD Panel, The specs won't mention the IPU, but it's there.
 

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at this price I dont see the point when there are plenty of android phones/tablets which are way more powerful, bigger screens along with higher resolution, already developed emulators (up to N64 and PS1 and experimental PSP right now), and can be coupled with a controller of your choosing
 

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It's not RAM usage itself- but the fact that you move four times more data every frame
RAM's clock rate, once initialized, doesn't vary. As far as I know the only times RAM will vary it's clock are...

1 - When overclocking or underclocking is being done to a system that's using a processor/motherboard with a locked multiplier, so the front-side bus speed is what's increased instead. In this type of situation the RAM's operating frequency is tied to the FSB as well, so it's clock rate will change too.

2 - When mixing sticks with different operating frequencies, the faster one will scale down to the lower one's speed.

Both of these cases require a restart of the system, and neither are done in response to workload. When CPUs do scale up or down due to workload (Intel's Speedstep, AMD's Cool'n'Quiet, thermal throttling, etc.), that's the CPU varying it's own clock rate (so the RAM isn't affected).

and the fact that in most games you're required to do upscaling in order to fit.
And that's just fine if it's a solid multiple.

Did you even read what I wrote?
Oh please, look who's talking...
If the device was so weak that nearest-neighbor scaling with the GPU caused an emulation hit, then it wouldn't be worth anybody's time nowadays. :P
[...]
Emulators can scale with a GPU easily, even the PSP is capable of upscaling GBA and SNES games with no loss. When the GCW Zero talks about additional CPU usage it's talking about things that would render at the full resolution in general, like the home screen and menus and such.
If a device can render internally at hi-res, then it should have no problem displaying hi-res. Nearest-neighbor/2:1 scaling has been considered a free action even on mobile GPUs for years. The PSP can even do it with it's GPU, and that's a 2004 GPU. Modern chips like the GCW Zero is using are much more powerful.
I've mentioned it multiple times nowadays, but since you don't listen to text (and pictures seem to be the only thing that gets through to you) here.

CPU usage, 1x.
cpu1.png


CPU usage, 2x.
cpu2.png


GPU usage, 1x.
gpu1.png


GPU usage, 2x.
gpu2.png


Note that these are taken with Process Explorer (a Microsoft utility) and reflect the usage of the emulator itself, not the combined system load. The dips in the performance graphs are when I had the emulator unfocused to move windows around and junk (it's set to pause emulation then).

Also, I have internal documents on the JZ4770 soc and on the LCD Panel, The specs won't mention the IPU, but it's there.
I call bullshit. If there is a dedicated IPU, you should be able to grab a picture of it (not necessarily from your own unit) because it'll be a separate chip on the board. Otherwise "IPU" is just a name for one of the functions the GPU itself does.
 

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at this price I dont see the point when there are plenty of android phones/tablets which are way more powerful, bigger screens along with higher resolution, already developed emulators (up to N64 and PS1 and experimental PSP right now), and can be coupled with a controller of your choosing
1 - Phones often have way worse battery life (I'm talking about emulated use time, not standby time), reports from testers indicate 7-10 hours of use for this thing since it doesn't have things like GSM/CDMA/whatever antennae and a lot of background processes sucking up battery.

2 - Carrying around a phone and a controller is more hassle than carrying around on device.
2a - It's two separate objects.
2b - The two objects take up more combined space.
2c - It's two batteries to keep charged.

For portable emulation, this device looks much better than average smartphones. Even ones with built-in keyboards don't have the right kind of button size/placements.
 

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2 - Carrying around a phone and a controller is more hassle than carrying around on device.
2a - It's two separate objects.
2b - The two objects take up more combined space.
2c - It's two batteries to keep charged.
To be fair:
2): you carry the phone around anyhow. So you're either carrying a phone and a controller, or a phone and a console.
2a-c): see 2)
 
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I don't know, it seems that a few people here are making a big deal because of the 320x240 resolution.
I'm really fine with that, coming from lackluster handled emulation experiences ( the DS at 256x192 has to scale down most emulated systems and it's just not powerful enough, while on the other end the PSP has a weird resolution at 480 × 272 which is too big, but not quite big enough to render most systems at 2x, so you end up with a tiny square with huge black borders if you prefer 1:1 pixel mapping, or a blurry image upscaled to the nearest neighbor still with black bars on the sides.....), to me it looks just perfect.

I'd rather have 98% of the games (I'm guessing here ) without any scaling, and the occasional Hi res game downscaled then the other way around....

Really, this handled looks incredible, I'm all for it.
 
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