[BFWWIWA] Issue #2 - Sony PSVita

Which system would you like to see covered in the next BFWWIWA issue?

  • Nintendo Gamecube

    Votes: 27 17.2%
  • Nintendo Wii

    Votes: 4 2.5%
  • Nintendo Game Boy Colour

    Votes: 6 3.8%
  • Nintendo Game Boy Advance

    Votes: 6 3.8%
  • Nintendo DS

    Votes: 4 2.5%
  • Nintendo 3DS

    Votes: 38 24.2%
  • Sony PlayStation

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • Sony PlayStation 2

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Sony PlayStation 3

    Votes: 11 7.0%
  • Sony PSP

    Votes: 11 7.0%
  • Sega Master System

    Votes: 11 7.0%
  • Sega Mega Drive/Genesis

    Votes: 6 3.8%
  • Atari 2600

    Votes: 8 5.1%
  • The Classic Amiga Line (500/600/1200)

    Votes: 10 6.4%
  • PC - A Personal RETRO-spective

    Votes: 12 7.6%

  • Total voters
    157

zeello

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I actually had a pretty long-winded response ready for you, despite reaching a couple sections that made me question whether you're genuienly confused, trolling, being sarcastic or being stupid.

To name a couple, "Left stick is only needed in between sequences to get to the next area", as if y'know, games didn't feature movement, be it of the character or across menus all the time.
It was sarcasm. I was satirizing your own argument and pointing out exactly how your argument sounds to me. As if, y'know, games didn't feature turning or looking, be it of the character or aiming your weapon all the time.

Another gem was "If you think this, then it stands to reason that there should be a stick under both of your thumbs." which goes completely against the preceeding idea of putting more priority on movement and face buttons and less priority on the d-pad and camera control, specifically because the D-pad and the right analog stick are used sporadically, if at all.
Correct, it does go completely against the idea, because the idea is wrong. You are the one saying that strafing and face buttons deserve priority whereas camera stick deserves to be snubbed, but I had never agreed to it and in fact have spent most of this time explaining why. Your logic is that left stick deserves priority because left stick is important. In that case right stick deserves priority too since it's important also, and arguably the 2nd-most important thing on the controller. 3rd place might be the interact-with-but-usually-kill-whatever-is-in-the-exact-center-of-the-screen button, a.k.a. right trigger, followed by the other remaining shoulder buttons/triggers, followed by face buttons, followed by dpad. Obviously there are exceptions but we've both accepted that the exceptions don't dictate the controller otherwise dpad should go on top for fighting games. We're talking about the majority and the pervasive, and we're at a point where there are clearly things that are majority and pervasive -- shooters, shooter controls, and shooter mechanics. Or:
Left stick = legs
right stick = head
right trigger = interact (i.e. kill)
the rest is just 11 other ways of doing things that isn't kill, or, additional ways to kill

"Okay but why do you assign left stick to the primary position then? It only does two things whereas dpad does four things. Dpad wins" is a firm personal favourite - because 4 directions (8 if you count diagonal combinations) are better than 360 degrees of movement (actually more than that, since computers operate on radians, but I'll keep it simple for you).
This is another clearly obvious parody and I have to wonder if you are trolling me by not purposefully ignoring my attempts at sarcasm. You wrote: "Again, there's only so much you can do with an analog stick. In comparison, you have four function buttons." Really dude.... really.

What's funny is you did not even specify which stick you were talking about. (even though you were obviously talking about the camera stick since it's the one you hate) You could have been talking about the left stick, thereby satirizing your own argument without even having to change a single word in your sentence. It's like you saw your double standard walking toward you and you walked right past.

Our disagreement isn't based based on superficial details, it's based on absolutely fundamental principles. If you really want to put both thumbs on the thumbsticks and never take them off at any point in time for maximum precision of movement and camera control, I suggest designing a controller with two analog sticks and least 8 shoulder buttons and triggers because by god, you're going to need them.
We have access to the same amount of buttons regardless of stick layout. I don't necessarily want to "never take my thumbs off at any point" the control sticks any more than you never want to take your thumbs off the face buttons + left stick.

Here in the real world games use function buttons, or if you prefer, face buttons (which is a terribly inaccurate description since Start/Select/PlayStation/XBox/Home/+/- and a variety of other buttons on contemporary controllers are face buttons, but are not in-game function buttons. As a side note I'll also say that they're situated in the least prioritized place, in the very center of the controller, because they're the least used - I know, mindblowing).
Here in the real world, games use camera stick and they use it prominently, many games require you use it just to be able to turn a corner.

Also, function button is a terribly inaccurate description, because shoulder buttons perform functions, and because start/select/etc perform functions.

I'll even go as far as to refute your "you cannot shoot with face buttons" point with an example - various installments of Metal Gear Solid seem to work perfectly fine with using the face buttons just fine for that purpose.
I was referring to games that use the camera stick for aiming, during which time you obviously use a shoulder or trigger to fire due to there being no other choice. Without fail, these games use a shoulder for trigger for firing, even when they use face button for jump.

Metal Gear Solid on the PS1 didn't do this but it is an overhead stealth game not a shooter. But MGS4 uses shooter conventions and mechanics, and so does Peace Walker. They are shooters. Which proves my point. This alone tells a story how once gaming was not all shooter centric but now absolutely is. MGS didn't even have camera stick initially. But now it does and I'm even being lectured how Peace Walker on PSP sucks due to a lack of it. Wake up.

The "vast majority of games contain shooting" point can also be easily contested, but that's self-explainatory. Your "checkmate" is a lot more like "this is my inaccurate approximation of the real world". Alas, I digress.
It's an inaccurate approximation if the approximation is predestined. If you have a certain idea about the way gaming but never cross-examine your model of the world then you will always assume it to be correct even in the face of evidence that it isn't.

You say that both sticks are used more or less equally and point out such genres as... FPS and TPS. That's all you mention. That's it. FPP and TPP are not genres, they're perspectives, but again, that's besides the point.
FPP always uses FPS controls and usually has projectiles if not guns.
A TPP is likely to use FPS controls and mechanics and often does so prominently.
In my book that makes them FPS/TPS since I categorize games by their controls, mechanics, and gameplay, and not by superficial differences by whether its first person or third person. By that logic racing shouldn't be a genre, but first person racing (FPR) for cockpit view and third person racing (TPR) for chase view. And if racing game lets you choose, then it's mixing genres.

I take it that in your world, turn-based RPG's, strategies, racing games, sports games, puzzle games, fighting games and 2D games simply don't exist... and you're calling my bubble "small".
And now you're acting like I am writing off all those genres, but in fact you are the one doing that by supposing which of those genres needs to be rejected by the stick layout. I am saying, reject none of them. I implore you not to reject genres on other gamers' behalf. That is not a good idea, it's just asshattery, but you are passing it off as ergonomics, and go on to prove yourself to be woefully unqualified to make such ergonomic choices in the first place since you don't even play videogames apparently.

Also, irony, you point our puzzle games and fighting games and 2D games, all things which are better with dpad on top as per your logic, but you had decided to give the priority to left stick instead of dpad. So I take it that in your your world, turn-based RPG's, puzzle games, fighting games and 2D games simply don't exist.... for shame, Foxi, you need to expand your horizons

I've made my point clear, but I'll make it clearer in this finishing post - pick up your phone. Now have a good look at what you're doing. Call me clairvoyant, but you probably did something along those lines:

DbmVDXd.jpg


Do you know why? Because holding your thumb up comes to you naturally, it's the anatomically-correct placement.
and therefore totally not the position you want to be vying for headshots with.

Holding it across the phone does not. This is why some sections of the controller are prioritized and some are not. When holding a controller in an anatomically-correct way, you want to have the most commonly used inputs at your fingertips - this includes the left analog stick which is used all the time, the triggers (which are always accessible anyways) and the right analog stick.
fixed

and it's quite generous of you to point out to your own detriment that the shoulder buttons are always accessible anyway. Because in that case why even fight for the function buttons, if you insist on me calling them that.
You've got a) movement stick, b) turning stick, and c) buttons
you're trying to replace b) turning stick, with d) even more buttons
It's a button extravaganza
hell, 8 buttons might not be enough, you might need dpad to access inventory, switch weapons, bring up HUD/map and to fucking crouch
Therefore the dpad should get priority over the left stick.
This is common sense zeello how do you not see it. Pick up your phone.

The rest of the inputs are in other places on the controller that are less favourable, the d-pad and the right analog stick using the ones that are still fairly easily accessible. That's all there is too it.
The fact you are willing to concede that the dpad and right analog stick are still fairly accessible just serves to undercut your whole argument. You were the one, not me, whose entire argument was based on the idea that one position is vastly superior over the other. But it seems you get to always lean back on the fact that it doesn't really matter. Kind of hypocritical no? I agree that it doesn't really matter so what's why I will always pick the symmetrical controller. At least with a symmetrical controller you have a 50/50 chance of getting it right whereas an assymetrical controller has a 1 in 4 chance. But really it's more of a 1 in 8 chance, because it's not simply that there are four combinations of stick layout, but the assymetrical controller is effectively ruling out half of the combinations. Half of 1 in 4 is 1 in 8.

And just think, symmetrical still guarantees giving you either a left stick in the super awesome position which you like, or the aiming stick in the back of the bus position which you like. It's not a wholly bad scenario for you Foxi.

You don't seem to understand what ergonomics stand for, so I'll explain - ergonomics of a controller are all about creating shapes and setups that are most anatomically sound. When you're holding your hand in its resting position, your digits are slightly curved wheras your thumb is pointing straight, as such:

mqnBY2M.jpg


It's not pointing away from the rest of your hand (as it would have to be to reach the center of the controller), it's straight, anatomically correct.
so it stands to reason that's where the aiming / turning /looking stick should be, as per your logic

You want your primary inputs to be within reach when your thumb is in this level position because it avoids unnecessary strain - that's ergonomical. Now, let's super-impose this onto an image of a controller.

A2Gk9bG.png


This is the exact same hand in the exact same resting position, mirrored and semi-transparent for your point-viewing convenience. Bar some minor size adjustments, it should now be relatively clear why some positions on a gamepad are more prioritized than others.
Except that if it were a Playstation controller those hands would be holding dpad and face buttons. So I guess dpad and face buttons take priority then? Hmm.

If it were a WiiU pro controller or gamepad then the hands would be holding both sticks. Aha! I win!

Here's how the same situation looks like in real-life, with applied grip.

XmUqv2P.jpg


This is a natural, relaxed position.
Exactly, which is why the controller designed for Halo doesn't have your thumb on aiming. Halo is a game where you are only occasionally pointing a gun at enemies, but hardly all of the time.

The original Xbox controller had 6 face buttons and the camera stick was designed differently (and worse) from the left stick. (see also Gamecube) What does that tell you.

Dreamcast controller had left stick and face buttons in the correct place. But it didn't even have a camera stick at all. What does that tell you.

Stop being wrong.

And here's a pop quiz. If you think face buttons are so important, then why aren't those functions mapped to the shoulders? No really, think about it.

You're holding the controller and all the important inputs are at your fingertips. You don't have to turn or stretch out your thumb to move the on-screen character or cursor - this causes less strain.
OH. So in order to aim a gun, I should have to feel strain. But obviously, when using the face buttons, no amount of strain is acceptable apparently. *cough* face-button-chauvinist...

Maybe each time I use camera stick, I should receive an electric shock. Whereas the face buttons should be air conditioned.

At the same time, other inputs are not too far away from that relaxed position, so when you do need to use them, your thumb does not have to travel far to reach them, but at the same time, they're not in the way.
Oh again with the apologetics

By now I hope you understand I am aware of the concept of ergonomics you are trying to sell me, just that I think you're still wrong. (By now I have become aware that you think I am really incredibly stupid as you are using pictures to explain very basic concepts that you have reiterated several times already) As I have pointed out, I'm not merely arguing my preference here. I'm pointing out that you're wrong. If you're going to argue that the most important controls should go on top, and that the left stick should be on top, then you've done yourself in, because already implied the camera stick should also be on top. It's over. You lose, you get nothing. Good day sir. To argue otherwise is an inane, contradictory, and hopelessly fickle as an assymetrical controller is.

In an ideal setup you want to provide the most convenience with the least strain, this is why controllers have layouts that allow the user access to core functionality
Right because movement, turning, and aiming are not core functionality

What we need is additional buttons to the ones we already have access to, and for those additional buttons to be maximally easy to reach.

Because everyone knows that games are not about navigating 3D environments as characters, nor for that matter are they ever about aiming and firing ranged weapons. In fact, most videogames are accordion simulators.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

to date, the amounts of times Sony or MS has switched stick layout:
0

number of fanboys who prefer their most-used stick layout, but purely for ergonomic reasons, and totally don't consider themselves biased at all:
all of them


If you want to argue about this further, I'd like you to take it outside of this thread, which is about the PSVita, and sort it out elsewhere - I've made my point crystal clear
so have I

rarely do I ever resort to images in order to explain a point,
all too commonly I have to resort to common sense as well as exposing hypocrisy

especially ones that require me to put in some effort in the form of editing, and if you still don't get it then we'll just have to agree to disagree
agree to disagree on what exactly. Is it that a) face buttons are superior to control stick, or b) a controller can't be perfect for everything, therefore we all might as well be forced to use Foxi's favorite layout.
 
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emigre

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Alright, then why doesn't the PS3 support VHS or audio casette tapes? Why doesn't the PS2? Is it perhaps that... the format is irrelevant to them? ;O;

The PS4 needs MP3 and DLNA support right now, Audio CD's I can live without. I don't remember the last time I've used one even on PC, I switched to MP3's a decade ago, and so did the world. ;)


The lack of consoles supporting vinyl disgusts me.
 

Foxi4

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By the end of this thread you'll have gone through Nintendo and PC.
It's really not my fault that some controllers are just better-designed than others. Remember, kids! If you have an opinion and can support it with arguments, it means you're a fanboy! :)

To be fair though, the Dual Shock 4 is a step in the right direction thanks to the updated shape of the L2/R2 triggers and the improved grip, it's definitely a more comfortable controller than the Dual Shocks 1/2/3, at least for the adult gamer. The three earlier iterations are a tad too small for my liking and I'm glad that they let go of tradition in favour of improving the controller, but I won't say that outloud, lest I'm accused of prejudice against little people.
 
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Tom Bombadildo

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It's really not my fault that some controllers are just better-designed than others. Remember, kids! If you have an opinion and can support it with arguments, it means you're a fanboy! :)

To be fair though, the Dual Shock 4 is a step in the right direction thanks to the updated shape of the L2/R2 triggers and the improved grip, it's definitely a more comfortable controller than the Dual Shock 1/2/3, at least for the adult gamer - the other three are a tad too small for my liking, but I won't say that outloud, lest I'm accused of prejudice against little people.
The DS4 makes my hands jizz when I use it.

FOXI4 WHAT THE FUCK YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE A SONY FANBOY :cry:
 

DJPlace

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Magnavox Odyssey Master Race. :)


no Foxi4 come back enjoy the dark side. but on a serious note. now i think the vita is turning into a fan service system. for 2 games i know so far. (which are vita only btw)

Monster Monpiece

and the DOA Killer (not gameplay killer but sexy look btw)

Senran Kagura Shinovi Versus
 

Nathan Drake

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no Foxi4 come back enjoy the dark side. but on a serious note. now i think the vita is turning into a fan service system. for 2 games i know so far. (which are vita only btw)

Monster Monpiece

and the DOA Killer (not gameplay killer but sexy look btw)

Senran Kagura Shinovi Versus
Nah, the Vita isn't for fan service. The Vita just happens to have a large number of weaboo games, and a large number of those weaboo games simply have fan service. Honestly, I don't know why we got Monster Monpiece. That seems like a really odd choice for localization.
 

Arras

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no Foxi4 come back enjoy the dark side. but on a serious note. now i think the vita is turning into a fan service system. for 2 games i know so far. (which are vita only btw)

Monster Monpiece

and the DOA Killer (not gameplay killer but sexy look btw)

Senran Kagura Shinovi Versus
No, it's turning into a weeaboo system. Or rather, it already was one.

...And I just bought one. I'm not sure how I should feel. (the download list is a fucking mess)
 

Foxi4

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What about Sega? The first issue of BFWWIWA was about a Sega system after all. Only a Sega Fanboy would do such madness.
Every console has something to offer, some more than others. Sometimes it's good to delve into the details of the underdogs because it's those systems that usually fly over everyone's head and it's those systems that may have interesting content that could not be experienced anywhere else. It's all about the hidden gems. :)
 

CathyRina

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Every console has something to offer, some more than others. Sometimes it's good to delve into the details of the underdogs because it's those systems that usually fly over everyone's head and it's those systems that may have interesting content that could not be experienced anywhere else. It's all about the hidden gems. :)

ikr I was just being sarcastic since that whole fanboyism is really childish and stupid.
 

DJPlace

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omg... i don't want to turn into a one of those weeaboo. also i never knew wapanese meant that btw. thanks for the info.
 

Gaming4Ever

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Any good places online to import a 64GB memory card???


Almost got 2x 32GB a lil while ago but thought it might be cheaper just getting a 64GB.....
 

Foxi4

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Any good places online to import a 64GB memory card??? Almost got 2x 32GB a lil while ago but thought it might be cheaper just getting a 64GB.....
eBay and Amazon are easy sources to consider and a 64GB card is indeed cheaper than two 32GB ones, not to mention that it's more convenient.
 

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