UK police warns those who post "hate crime" and threatens users with "criminal offences"

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Stephano

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Gonna have to disagree with you there, political correctness is simply a buzzword used to get one wing angry at the other, just as bigotry is. Both are obviously issues, but not nearly as much as people make it out to be, at least as far as I can tell
I pray that your right. Although, it does make sense why it's overblown in the media. I may live in the south but there is no PC here. I guess what we see is the minority.
However, things like this and Canada's bill 89 make me think otherwise.

I may not know proportions, but I know what I want and believe the World should be. And that's good enough for me.
 

TotalInsanity4

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I pray that your right. Although, it does make sense why it's overblown in the media. I may live in the south but there is no PC here. I guess what we see is the minority.
However, things like this and Canada's bill 89 make me think otherwise.

I may not know proportions, but I know what I want and believe the World should be. And that's good enough for me.
What channels/outlets do you watch
 

TheDarkGreninja

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What if you're criticizing someone as a person, for example, the Prime Minister? What if you just don't like someone and you say that to them (i.e. call your ex a "cheating bitch")? If the person you say it to is of another ethnicity, couldn't that also be interpreted as "hate speech" in a court of law, especially by a cunning lawyer? I think the wording is pretty vague.

Well no, this is what comes from a lack of knowledge of the law in the UK.
There's a pretty detailed description of what constitutes hate speech, what you've been trying to do is finding loopholes which can be simply explained. So, before I just show you the description I'll discuss some flaws in your argument.

Criticism is not hate speech. Just compare the definitions:
"the expression of disapproval of someone or something on the basis of perceived faults or mistakes."

-Criticism

"Expressions of hatred toward someone on account of that person's colour, race, disability, nationality (including citizenship), ethnic or national origin, religion, or sexual orientation is forbidden"

- Hate speech

So, criticism is the disapproval based on falsifiable evidence, whereas hate speech is an expression of hatred without the requirement of evidence/basis. So what do they mean by this?
If the above were the only thing in UK law that described hate speech then yes, it would be vague. But it's not.

"

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) they intend thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.
Offences under Part 3 carry a maximum sentence of seven years imprisonment or a fine or both.[6]"


I think this is pretty clear, they must clearly show intent to stir up racial hatred, so they must at least mention something that identifies a specific race or religion etc.

So no, there is very little room for interpretation.
I'd chalk that down to ignorance of law, no offence of course.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom
(All you had to was google search, dude)

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Well, that is good you haven't seen any censorship. Now, while you may have your own believes, all i can ask is that you not let anyone censor you and not be afraid to speak. The world is getting more frail everyday. Life is hard and people are rude and it all just sucks. That is reality. People try to hide this and it just can't be hidden. The sooner people realize this, the stronger we all become.

Indeed.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Well under your laws, you'd be off to jail just about now for saying mean things.
Look above :P

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Ah, yes, the UK and Europe, where saying you want to kill all infidels and establish a caliphate is fine, but where criticising those beliefs is "hateful".

It's very saddening to see people here defending censorship and the erosion of the freedoms of speech and expression.

Ignorance. Prove your claim.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I don't think "caliphate" means what you think it means

Most who think they know what Islam is, do not.
I could bet you about 9/10 of you think Jihad means holy war.
 

geodeath

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bruh none of this makes sense
people aren't even allowed to carry like a pocket knife if some guy charges at them?
this is just making everyone have no way to defend themselves if someone wants to kill people.
the guys who commit crimes will still find a way, no anti-knife law will stop it

also i ain't no wild yee-haw gun advocate but i think cops that patrol normal areas in the UK should be allowed to have pistols.
If you find some giant carrying a shotgun, the cops should be able to fight back rather than just yelling "put down your gun" and having their brains get blown out
sure police brutality exists, but them having guns still saves quite a lot of lives

Just replying to let you know that they asked the patrol police (regular ones, not special units or others) whether they would prefer to have a gun and the big percentage said no. This comes down to culture really and i do not mean it is to say that cops here are culturally better, just different.
 
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A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) they intend thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.
Offences under Part 3 carry a maximum sentence of seven years imprisonment or a fine or both.[6]"
So every 13 year old kid who calls every one niggers on Call of Duty is going to prison then. "Stirring up racial hatred" is also not clearly defined, so even the most innocuous words or phrases could be construed as such. It's still all subjective.
 
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TheDarkGreninja

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So every 13 year old kid who calls every one niggers on Call of Duty is going to prison then. "Stirring up racial hatred" is also not clearly defined, so even the most innocuous words or phrases could be construed as such. It's still all subjective.

You do know there are such things as severity in law right?
If a kid were to do it they'd be told off.

It's the same reason we have different degrees of manslaughter.

"
This offence refers to:

  • deliberately provoking hatred of a racial group
  • distributing racist material to the public
  • making inflammatory public speeches
  • creating racist websites on the Internet
  • inciting inflammatory rumours about an individual or an ethnic group, for the purpose of spreading racial discontent."
Please do at least some research man.
 
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Plstic

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dude, i say screw privacy if it means getting criminals off the streets, but i'm also pretty sure they can distinguish between trolling and actual "hate".
Screw you if you think privacy is moot. Also the nothing the hide is not an excuse. Most people break 3 or 4 laws a day without even knowing.
 

MadMageKefka

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I can't be bothered right now to debunk that source, maybe later.
Later apparently meant in 5 seconds and in the same post, lol. That didn't take long. Or did you mean the link I provided? Confusing since you quoted the entire post... If that's the case, I'm willing to bet its because you know you're wrong. I can't speak for any other book, I haven't read them, but the bible is PACKED with condoned violence. TONS of it.

Speaking of ignorance:
State:

a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government.
We are the United STATES of America. Our COUNTRY is made up of multiple states. Although calling it a state might be technically correct, considering USA is made up of 50 smaller governments / territories called (take a guess) STATES, anyone here would tell you that sounds wrong. USA is not a state, Massachusetts is a state. Texas is a state. I hope you get the point. If you call the entire USA a state, you're gonna confuse just about anyone here. I'm sorry, but when talking about USA (or other countries with states like Mexico) calling the entire country a state is wrong.

You're new, right? I've been in a number of these arguments, anyone who's been here as long as I have will tell you that.
Eh, about a year. Little over. Obviously I don't know you well enough to make a claim like I did seriously, the point was more that you seem to like that website you linked a bit too much.

Show me one place I have not understood?
I did... I literally spelled out for you how the quote of mine that you linked the black-and-white logical fallacy definition to does not fit. If you really can't see that, good luck to you. It wasn't a matter of limiting the options I gave to make my argument seem more valid (intentional or not) there were no "options" at all. I gave a single example that you considered to be irrelevant information, which I do kinda understand. Still not a black-and-white logical fallacy, though.

One thing to note, I don't hate you or anything. To me, the thing I care about most is debate, sorry if I came off a bit harsh.
That's not it at all. Id honestly prefer a "harsh" debate as things are often more clear when not sugar-coated. The reason I'm trying to put a stop to this is because I think it would be seen as "bickering" by most people and I don't wanna get either of us warning points or end up getting the thread locked or something stupid. Plus, its clear at this point that neither of us are going to see things the other person's way. That's fine and all, but it also means there is literally no point to continue arguing over it. No hard feelings or anything like that. Again though, If you really feel you have more to say to me on this, you can PM me, or you can open a blog about it if you'd like it to be public. You can get away with arguing in blogs as long as it doesn't get out of control from what I've seen.
 
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Blue Sun

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We live in a stupid stupid world.

When I was growing up, we were taught to nevermind what people had to say about us.

"I'm rubber, your glue", etc.
The problem with that is that it is biologically impossible to grow skin impervious to everything said about us throughout our entire lives unless we also happen to not give a shit about anything. "Don't feed the trolls" is bad advice because the troll is very likely to a) try something else that will get under your skin such as getting physical or b) go after somebody else who will cave much easier than you. Some turds will keep hammering at their target until they crack, and they eventually will if the turd doesn't run out of things to hit them with (and if one person doesn't do the trick, grab your friends! I'm sure it'll be a riot!). No one is totally invincible, acting like we can be without getting rid of our ability to feel emotion period is nothing short of stupid. There is a reason we have laws and "common sense" and it's why lines are drawn because without them we'd have collapsed a long time ago, but so far they are ineffective because no one truly upholds them and humanity is only getting worse. Just short of removing emotion (and thought in the process), wiping out the human species is the only effective way to put a stop to this because we humans as a whole are not inclined to be kind even though we have the capacity for it. Being kind is largely taught from someone who is going against the grain (and in the natural world of kill or be killed/survival of the fittest, kindness is very bad at keeping us alive). Our base nature of survival, pursuit of power, and pursuit of pleasure above most else makes our species just shy of outright evil as it is primarily defined at best because it lends itself too much to virtually everything wrong with this planet.
 
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MadMageKefka

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The problem with that is that it is biologically impossible to grow skin impervious to everything said about us throughout our entire lives unless we also happen tonot give a shit about anything. There exists people who are assholes and will keep hammering at their target until they crack (and if one person doesn't do the trick, grab your friends! I'm sure it'll be a riot!). No one is totally invincible, acting like we can be without getting rid of our ability to feel emotion period is nothing short of stupid. There is a reason we have laws and "common sense" and it's why lines are drawn because without them we'd have collapsed a long time ago, but so far they are ineffective because no one truly upholds them and humanity is only getting worse. Just short of removing emotion (and thought in the process), wiping out the human species is the only effective way to put a stop to this because we humans as a whole are not inclined to be kind even though we have the capacity for it. Being kind is largely taught from someone who is going against the grain. Our base nature of survival, pursuit of power, and pursuit of pleasure above most else makes our species just shy of outright evil as it is primarily define at best because it lends itself too much to virtually everything wrong with this planet.
Online though? Just get twitter or whatever to add an option to filter out comments from a particular user. Then you don't have to lay your tender virgin eyes on those terrible, horrible, deadly words. The person wont even know they are blocked because for all they know, you could be seeing it, but not responding. ....or you could just stop reading them. Herp.

So your other point is that sometimes people don't stop. Well.... you're wrong. Trust me on this: ALL bullies / trolls / spammers / whatever eventually get bored. If you continue to get all butthurt over what they are doing, then yea.... they are gonna have fun with it and not stop. If you (and I know this is so insanely tough for some of you) JUST IGNORE THEM, they will EVENTUALLY get bored and stop. Maybe a month later, maybe more, but they will eventually get bored if it gets no reaction out of you. I could understand if a person was harassing you in real life, but online? There are so many ways to deal with it already, police action seems like a bit much to me unless its strait up death threats or something physically dangerous.

One more thing: I'm sorry, but people need to grow a pair / spine / something that makes them less weak. If words HONESTLY bother you that much (keep in mind physical harassment is very different) then I think you need to get off the internet. Completely. Getting mad at peoples (albeit often misguided) opinions on the internet is insane. Getting butthurt because someone is trolling you online is a bit more understandable, but if you wish to continue using the internet, you're gonna have to get used to it. Just because the UK takes police action on racist / whatever hatred remarks doesn't mean every other country in the world will too. There will still be people, out of reach of the law, that can say whatever the fuck they want to you. Whether or not you like it, this sort of problem will ALWAYS be a thing online, and if you can't deal with it, you need to leave before its too late.
 
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TheDarkGreninja

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Later apparently meant in 5 seconds and in the same post, lol. That didn't take long. Or did you mean the link I provided? Confusing since you quoted the entire post... If that's the case, I'm willing to bet its because you know you're wrong. I can't speak for any other book, I haven't read them, but the bible is PACKED with condoned violence. TONS of it.

I said I'd debunk the source if I was bothered.
But simply linking me a source and telling me "evidence" is pretty pathetic, no offence.
"You know your wrong"
Nope.

We are the United STATES of America. Our COUNTRY is made up of multiple states. Although calling it a state might be technically correct, considering USA is made up of 50 smaller governments / territories called (take a guess) STATES, anyone here would tell you that sounds wrong. USA is not a state, Massachusetts is a state. Texas is a state. I hope you get the point. If you call the entire USA a state, you're gonna confuse just about anyone here. I'm sorry, but when talking about USA (or other countries with states like Mexico) calling the entire country a state is wrong.

It isnt when that's what the word means. Just because you don't agree with the definition doesnt make it any less true.

the point was more that you seem to like that website you linked a bit too much.

It's a good way to point out logical flaws in an argument. I recommend you use it on me if something seems off :P.

I literally spelled out for you how the quote of mine that you linked the black-and-white logical fallacy definition to does not fit. If you really can't see that, good luck to you. It wasn't a matter of limiting the options I gave to make my argument seem more valid (intentional or not) there were no "options" at all. I gave a single example that you considered to be irrelevant information, which I do kinda understand. Still not a black-and-white logical fallacy, though.

Now that i look at it again it would be much closer to a slippery slope fallacy.
So you're right in a sense.

That's not it at all. Id honestly prefer a "harsh" debate as things are often more clear when not sugar-coated. The reason I'm trying to put a stop to this is because I think it would be seen as "bickering" by most people and I don't wanna get either of us warning points or end up getting the thread locked or something stupid. Plus, its clear at this point that neither of us are going to see things the other person's way. That's fine and all, but it also means there is literally no point to continue arguing over it. No hard feelings or anything like that. Again though, If you really feel you have more to say to me on this, you can PM me, or you can open a blog about it if you'd like it to be public. You can get away with arguing in blogs as long as it doesn't get out of control from what I've seen.

I'm not a fan of harsh debates. I'd rather a debate where things are clearly put, but with a basic level of respect between the debaters.
 
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Blue Sun

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The problem with that is that it is biologically impossible to grow skin impervious to everything said about us throughout our entire lives unless we also happen to not give a shit about anything. There exists people who are assholes and will keep hammering at their target until they crack (and if one person doesn't do the trick, grab your friends! I'm sure it'll be a riot!). No one is totally invincible, acting like we can be without getting rid of our ability to feel emotion period is nothing short of stupid. There is a reason we have laws and "common sense" and it's why lines are drawn because without them we'd have collapsed a long time ago, but so far they are ineffective because no one truly upholds them and humanity is only getting worse. Just short of removing emotion (and thought in the process), wiping out the human species is the only effective way to put a stop to this because we humans as a whole are not inclined to be kind even though we have the capacity for it. Being kind is largely taught from someone who is going against the grain. Our base nature of survival, pursuit of power, and pursuit of pleasure above most else makes our species just shy of outright evil as it is primarily define at best because it lends itself too much to virtually everything wrong with this planet.
Online though? Just get twitter or whatever to add an option to filter out comments from a particular user. Then you don't have to lay your tender virgin eyes on those terrible, horrible, deadly words. The person wont even know they are blocked because for all they know, you could be seeing it, but not responding. ....or you could just stop reading them. Herp.

So your other point is that sometimes people don't stop. Well.... you're wrong. Trust me on this: ALL bullies / trolls / spammers / whatever eventually get bored. If you continue to get all butthurt over what they are doing, then yea.... they are gonna have fun with it and not stop. If you (and I know this is so insanely tough for some of you) JUST IGNORE THEM, they will EVENTUALLY get bored and stop. Maybe a month later, maybe more, but they will eventually get bored if it gets no reaction out of you. I could understand if a person was harassing you in real life, but online? There are so many ways to deal with it already, police action seems like a bit much to me unless its strait up death threats or something physically dangerous.

One more thing: I'm sorry, but people need to grow a pair / spine / something that makes them less weak. If words HONESTLY bother you that much (keep in mind physical harassment is very different) then I think you need to get off the internet. Completely. Getting mad at peoples (albeit often misguided) opinions on the internet is insane. Getting butthurt because someone is trolling you online is a bit more understandable, but if you wish to continue using the internet, you're gonna have to get used to it. Just because the UK takes police action on racist / whatever hatred remarks doesn't mean every other country in the world will too. There will still be people, out of reach of the law, that can say whatever the fuck they want to you. Whether or not you like it, this sort of problem will ALWAYS be a thing online, and if you can't deal with it, you need to leave before its too late.
You honest to god think that this issue is limited to the online world? Please. The truly assholish "trolls/bullies/spammers" don't bore that easy; there is literally no shortage of targets for them. "Trolls/bullies/spammers" don't stop being who they are because of a "lack of reaction" for the moment. They'll find someone else. And I don't care how think you think you can grow your spine, balls, or whatever. Stop acting like you can magically become some invincible superman that no one can touch. It's only by chance that you've never met someone who's willing to take it outside of the computer And if "mean" words shouldn't ever have some sort of impact on someone, than kind words shouldn't either. After all, they're all just words in the end. Only actions really should count for anything right?
 

MadMageKefka

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Now that i look at it again it would be much closer to a slippery slope fallacy.
So you're right in a sense.
"So you're right in a sense." ....in a sense. You can't even admit when you're wrong, lol. Also:

I said I'd debunk the source if I was bothered.
But simply linking me a source and telling me "evidence" is pretty pathetic, no offence.
"You know your wrong"
Nope.
You misquoted me and spelled "you're" and "offense" wrong. Good job. You do know there is a spell check built into the forum, right?

I'm not a fan of harsh debates. I'd rather a debate where things are clearly put, but with a basic level of respect between the debaters.
That would be much easier if I had any respect for you, but as I'm sure you guessed by my comment from yesterday basically calling you an arrogant tool, I don't. I said I had no hard feelings toward you, not that I had any respect for you. So again, for a 3rd time now... I'm going to try to do the right thing here and ask that we continue this argument elsewhere if you really wish to do so. Or don't, I honestly couldn't care less. I will not reply to you here again.

You honest to god think that this issue is limited to the online world? Please. The truly assholish "trolls/bullies/spammers" don't bore that easy; there is literally no shortage of targets for them. "Trolls/bullies/spammers" don't stop being who they are because of a "lack of reaction" for the moment. They'll find someone else. And I don't care how think you think you can grow your spine, balls, or whatever. Stop acting like you can magically become some invincible superman that no one can touch. It's only by chance that you've never met someone who's willing to take it outside of the computer And if "mean" words shouldn't ever have some sort of impact on someone, than kind words shouldn't either. After all, they're all just words in the end. Only actions really should count for anything right?
Uhh, isn't this about online problems, though? That is what we are talking about, isn't it? 'Cuz I mean.... yea, you're right. Some people will take that into the real world, and at that point it becomes a crime. I don't think anyone here is trying to say otherwise....

Also yes, only actions count. That's 100% correct. There was a discussion a while back on someone's blog here about how no one really cared any more when you say "sorry" for something. Pretty much that. Ever hear the phrase, "actions speak louder than words?"
 
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Don't be an ass
lol, I think I already qualified for the "ass" position yesterday, but I'll keep your advice in mind, thanks. In my defense he is calling me pathetic in the quote. Ironic how pathetic it is that he can't tell a word is misspelled even when there is a little red line under it. This is why I asked him to move this elsewhere. It was eventually gonna come down to this.
 
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