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Foxi4

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Let's not fall prey to the megahertz myth, shall we? 268MHz doesn't mean anything of value in terms of performance assessment when we don't know how many operations per cycle the system performs to begin with - we don't have access to exact benchmarks, we're merely working with values available online for the ARM11 line.

The second myth we have to bust is that the original 3DS used only one core in games - that's not true, at least not anymore. This was a limitation when the system was first put on the market that's been eliminated since - the OS uses only a portion of one core and the system is fully capable of running multithreaded applications. It's not entirely fair to say that 4*268MHz is equal to 2*536MHz, it's not that simple, but I think it's safe to say that we're looking at an almost 100% increase of firepower here, I'm saying almost because some will be lost for the sake of code parallelism. This is a pretty substantial increase, we can't pretend that it isn't.

As far as Integer versus Floating Point maths are concerned, Floating Point is rarely performed on the CPU these days - systems either have dedicated maths co-processors or simply calculate Floating Point on the GPU, so arguing over whether the Floating Point performance of the CPU is better or worse than that of the Wii's CPU is pretty pointless. Moreover, we can't forget that we're talking about a portable device that runs at a lower resolution than the Wii itself - it doesn't have to match the Wii's performance 1:1 to support the same or similar quality software, at least in terms of visuals.

Lastly, it's worth to mention that althought the Wii might've been better at number-crunching, the 3DS supports more contemporary hardware accelerated effects, it's simply a more modern design.
 
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MyJoyConRunsHot

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Let's not fall pray to the megahertz myth, shall we? 268MHz doesn't mean anything of value in terms of performance assessment when we don't know how many operations per cycle the system performs to begin with - we don't have access to exact benchmarks, we're merely working with values available online for the ARM11 line.
This is the part I was emphasizing. 268Mhz could mean anything from weaker than the gamecube to stronger than the Wii depending on how many instructions and operations it can complete per cycle. However 268Mhz doesn't exactly promise high performance as much as 400Mhz would. We were debating this on the n64 emulator thread, you said an ARM11 could emulate it, but 268Mhz could reduce the likly hood that such an emulator would run effectivly. Compared to say, an ARM11 running at 700Mhz. The clockspeed can depend on the capabilites of the particular (custom) CPU used, a 400Mhz ARM11 can be capable of n64 emulation or not depending on custom architecture.

The second myth we have to bust is that the original 3DS used only one core in games - that's not true, at least not anymore. This was a limitation when the system was first put on the market that's been eliminated since - the OS uses only a portion of one core and the system is fully capable of running multithreaded applications. It's not entirely fair to say that 4*268MHz is equal to 2*536MHz, it's not that simple, but I think it's safe to say that we're looking at an almost 100% increase of firepower here, I'm saying almost because some will be lost for the sake of code parallelism. This is a pretty substantial increase, we can't pretend that it isn't.
True. 25% of the second CPU to be exact, was opened up to devs.

Edit:
Speaking of cache, didn't the prototype 3DS have use the Tegra 1 chipset? Tegra 1s use ARM11s with SoC L2 caches. The retail version of the 3DS uses similar specs to the prototype version, so wouldn't that hint to a possible existence of an L2 cache in the OG 3DS? The Zune HD had an ARM11 and 256kb L2 cache(shared).
 

Oxybelis

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Let's not fall pray to the megahertz myth, shall we? 268MHz doesn't mean anything of value in terms of performance assessment when we don't know how many operations per cycle the system performs to begin with - we don't have access to exact benchmarks, we're merely working with values available online for the ARM11 line.
We can reliably say that GameCube core performs more operations per cycle because it is out-of-order core.

I do not know why did you mention doing FP on GPU and FPU block in x86 is a coprocessor too. 3DS has VFP coprocessor. http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.dui0473c/CHDHAGGE.html
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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Please elaborate then, because it seems to me know that you're just trolling.
Out-of-order completion allows instructions to be executed regardless of the outcome of previous instructions. New instructions can complete their execution without waiting.
http://www.it.uom.gr/teaching/embedded/material/support.inf.uth.gr_courses_CE536/Related_Documents/5 Reduced Instruction Set Computing (RISC) machines and the ARM processor/ARM11.pdf
All sources say the ARM11 does this.

In contrast, the GCN only allows for in-order completion.
http://www.molecularbear.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/gamecube.pdf
I think its safe to say they are pretty equal in operations per second, unless proven otherwise.

Edit:
And all this doesn't even take into account that the ARM11 supports a 64-bit bus while the Gekko is on a 32-bit chip.
http://pastebin.com/Ybsn0fyA
More data with more efficient calculations.
 

Foxi4

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We can reliably say that GameCube core performs more operations per cycle because it is out-of-order core.

I do not know why did you mention doing FP on GPU and FPU block in x86 is a coprocessor too. 3DS has VFP coprocessor. http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.dui0473c/CHDHAGGE.html
What? No. Performing instructions out of order doesn't mean that you'll perform more instructions - it means that they can be performed out of order. As for co-processors, that's specifically why I mentioned the fact that most CPU's have co-processors, co-processing ALU's or use the GPU for calculations they're not good at.
 

Oxybelis

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What? No. Performing instructions out of order doesn't mean that you'll perform more instructions - it means that they can be performed out of order. As for co-processors, that's specifically why I mentioned the fact that most CPU's have co-processors, co-processing ALU's or use the GPU for calculations they're not good at.
in-order CPU stalls if data is not available wasting cycles. 3DS GPU can not make any calculations for a game logic, animation, etc.
 

Foxi4

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in-order CPU stalls if data is not available wasting cycles. 3DS GPU can not make any calculations for a game logic, animation, etc.
This much is true, but it's more of a matter of how the instruction scheduler is organized. ;) I wasn't saying that the 3DS's GPU is used for game logic calculation, I was saying that CPU's in general don't do this sort of thing these days - specialized co-processors do.
 

Oxybelis

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This much is true, but it's more of a matter of how the instruction scheduler is organized. ;) I wasn't saying that the 3DS's GPU is used for game logic calculation, I was saying that CPU's in general don't do this sort of thing these days - specialized co-processors do.
Almost every CPU now have FPU coprocessor inside.
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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Ok, so assuming the CPUs of both systems (GCN vs. 3DS) are roughly the same in performance based on the info provided above. How much of a performance increase would the New 3DS's 3 cores @268Mhzhave against the Wii's 1 core @729Mhz. The Wii's CPU was just a Gekko overclocked by 200Mhz , the New 3DS on the other hand can be described as a GCN (OG 3DS) with 3 more cores.
 

Foxi4

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Ok, so assuming the CPUs of both systems (GCN vs. 3DS) are roughly the same in performance based on the info provided above. How much of a performance increase would the New 3DS's 3 cores have against the Wii's 1 core. The Wii's CPU was just a Gekko overclocked by 200Mhz , the New 3DS on the other hand can be described as a GCN (OG 3DS) with 3 more cores.
That's not how it works, really. On paper the 3DS is weaker than the Gamecube and I'm willing to wager that on paper, the New 3DS is weaker than the Wii.
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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How is it weaker than The GCN? The 3DS CPU has more bits, same cache, newer hardware, out-of-order completion, deeper pipelines, better bandwidth, higher branch prediction, etc
 

Foxi4

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How is it weaker than The GCN? The 3DS CPU has more bits, same cache, newer hardware, out-of-order completion, deeper pipelines, higher branch prediction, etc
It's weaker as far as raw computing power is concerned, and you can calculate that relatively easily. We're talking about 1.25 DMIPS per cycle per core versus 2.3 DMIPS per cycle per core, that's a substantial difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_per_second

As far as real-life performance is concerned, that still has to be benchmarked.
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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It's weaker as far as raw computing power is concerned, and you can calculate that relatively easily. We're talking about 1.25 DMIPS per cycle per core versus 2.3 DMIPS per cycle per core, that's a substantial difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_per_second

As far as real-life performance is concerned, that still has to be benchmarked.

All of the aspects I listed are the biggest contributes to IPS. DMIPS is not a good measure of real world performance, especially in gaming. And on top of that, that DMIPS measurement is of the stock model which is far weaker than the one in the 3DS.
 

Foxi4

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All of the aspects I listed are the biggest contributes to IPS. DMIPS is not a good measure of real world performance, especially in gaming. And on top of that, that DMIPS measurement is of the stock model which has far less cache than the 3DS.
I have problems believing that a low-power mobile ARM CPU has more brawn than a full-scale PowerPC CPU, even one that's outdated at this point. I'm not willing to make definite judgements before I see actual benchmarks of the CPU, but right now I'm pessimistic regarding the 3DS' firepower, especially considering the fact that a portion of one of the core's processing power is spent on background OS processes, thus taking away from what could be used for in-application performance - this is a problem which the Gamecube doesn't have to tackle.
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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You realize, with that last statement, that the GCN only has 1 core right? Just the fact that 1 and a portion of the 3DS's 2 CPU's can be used by developers gives it a 1-up against the GCN. It has been demonstrated multiple times that the Arm11's compare favorably against PPCs. Grans on gamefaqs is good with tech specs:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/997614-nintendo-3ds/70470595
As well as this source:
http://pastebin.com/Ybsn0fyAde
And this is not including the fact that the 3DS ran RE5 just fine. I think it would normally take atleast GCN power to run a game made for the ps360.
 

Foxi4

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You realize, with that last statement, that the GCN only has 1 core right? Just the fact that 1 and a portion of the 3DS's 2 CPU's can be used by developers gives it a 1-up against the GCN. It has been demonstrated multiple times that the Arm11's compare favorably against PPCs. Grans on gamefaqs is good with tech specs:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/997614-nintendo-3ds/70470595
As well as this source:
http://pastebin.com/Ybsn0fyA
So it's a single weak ARM11 core and some sloppy seconds from the other core at around 268MHz versus one PPC750 core at 485MHz... yeah, that does not look favourable for the 3DS, not at all. Even though the design is more modern in just about every way, I'm leaning towards the Gamecube's CPU as the stronger one here, although I'm willing to change my mind if I see any conclusive evidence stating otherwise.
 
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MyJoyConRunsHot

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So it's a single weak ARM11 core and some sloppy seconds from the other core at around 268MHz versus one PPC750 core at 485MHz... yeah, that does not look favourable for the 3DS, not at all. Even though the design is more modern in just about every way, I'm leaning towards the Gamecube's CPU as the stronger one here, although I'm willing to change my mind if I see any conclusive evidence stating otherwise.

Sorry, but your stone age Gekko from 1997 is too old and inadequate to best the Arm11 used in the 3DS. I'd love to see it run RE5, lol. I'll take the words of software designers like grans and lol_faq from gamefaqs thank you very much.
 

Foxi4

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Sorry, but your stone age Gekko from 1997 is too old and inadequate to best the Arm11 used in the 3DS. I'd love to see it run RE5, lol. I'll take the words of software designers like grans and lol_faq from gamefaqs thank you very much.
Ah yes, the famous software designers "grans" and "lol_faq", I'm sorry for not recognizing those world-famous figures of authority. :rolleyes:
 

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