Hacking N64 Emulation on 3DS... Speculation

[gamefan5]

Yeah I see 3DS running the N64.
Perfectly, though? Far from it.

 

[Clydefrosch]

wouldnt it look terrible with the 3ds' resulution?

 

[Sychophantom]

Just because you own game on n64, it doesn't give you legal rights to emulate that game on anything. If you can show a law in any country that says differently, please do.

With that said, some n64 games can quite probably be emulated on the 3DS. However, the n64 isn't that easy to emulate in general. Even the Wii doesn't have 100% compatibility. If I remember correctly, it's even recommended to use European roms rather than NA of JP because of lower framerate caps or something.

 

[ComeTurismO]

N64 Emulation would be good for the 3DS, but we don't know yet prior to the 3DS hacked. As the other guy said, if Nintendo released Nintendo 64 Classics.

 

[Janthran]

Just because you own game on n64, it doesn't give you legal rights to emulate that game on anything. If you can show a law in any country that says differently, please do.

With that said, some n64 games can quite probably be emulated on the 3DS. However, the n64 isn't that easy to emulate in general. Even the Wii doesn't have 100% compatibility. If I remember correctly, it's even recommended to use European roms rather than NA of JP because of lower framerate caps or something.

It's 100% legal to emulate whatever you want. It's just downloading warez that's illegal.

 

[metroid maniac]

Just because you own game on n64, it doesn't give you legal rights to emulate that game on anything. If you can show a law in any country that says differently, please do.

I am fairly certain that in most countries you can create a copy of software you own for backup. That would mean you have to dump the cartridge yourself though.

 

[Sychophantom]

It's 100% legal to emulate whatever you want. It's just downloading warez that's illegal.

No, it isn't. People confuse making a legal backup with playing said backup on computers/phones/other systems. It's legal to make a backup YOURSELF, to play on the original hardware only. Once you change hardware, it falls into a grey area. Not to mention I seriously doubt everyone in this thread has the means to dump n64 games.

Now, there are public domain roms for nearly every system. So those are 100% legal, but that copy of Quest64....not so much.

 

[Janthran]

No, it isn't. People confuse making a legal backup with playing said backup on computers/phones/other systems. It's legal to make a backup YOURSELF, to play on the original hardware only. Once you change hardware, it falls into a grey area. Not to mention I seriously doubt everyone in this thread has the means to dump n64 games.

Now, there are public domain roms for nearly every system. So those are 100% legal, but that copy of Quest64....not so much.

If you've made a legal backup, you're allowed to use it for personal means. That includes emulation.

 

[Deleted member 194275]

Please No Flaming, Trolling or Arguing

Sorry, I do not want to be rude, but discuss emulation now... well... It is like discuss if Windows 98 will run on a quantum computer...

 

[Sychophantom]

If you've made a legal backup, you're allowed to use it for personal means. That includes emulation.

No, it doesn't. And again, show me the law that states it does, and I'll gladly admit I am wrong. Emulation is a bit of a legal issue, since generally it is meant for things no longer in production.

Taken from the Wikipedia page on video game emulation.

As computers and global computer networks continued to advance and emulator developers grew more skilled in their work, the length of time between the commercial release of a console and its successful emulation began to shrink. Fifth generation consoles such as the Nintendo 64, the Sony PlayStation and sixth generation handhelds, such as the Game Boy Advance, saw significant progress toward emulation during their production. This has led to a more concerted effort by console manufacturers to crack down on unofficial emulation. Both country specific copyright and patent law and international copyright law under the Berne Convention protect copying and reproducing of subject matter with copyright protection.[1]
Under United States law, obtaining a dumped copy of the original machine's BIOS is legal under the ruling Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc., 964 F.2d 965 (9th Cir. 1992) as fair use as long as the user obtained a legally purchased copy of the machine. However, several emulators for platforms such as Game Boy Advance are capable of running without a BIOS file, using high-level emulation to simulate BIOS subroutines at a slight cost in emulation accuracy.

Now, Fair Use, which is what most people think gives them the right to emulate, doesn't really touch on video games at all. It talks about movies, books, and music. Broad interpretation covers games, as well as art, fashion, and even tattoos.

How many in this thread have the means to make a legal backup of an N64 game? I don't. Yet I'd play some games on an emulator. I am not legally within my rights to do so, and anyone else who thinks they are are deluding themselves.

We're also getting off topic here. I am guilty of that, so I'm ending my talk about the legalities of emulation in this thread right here.

The original thread asked if might be possible to emulate n64 games on the 3DS....and it may be. It also may not be without a chip-based solution like the SCDS2 (only more powerful). When the 3DS is hacked, we'll know more.

 

[the_randomizer]

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/964/965/341457/

 

[DaniPoo]

The games I do hope for it to emulate are
Paper Mario
TLoZ OOT and Mario Kart 64

Although Sound can be sacrificed for Performance... Right?

TLoZ OOT? Thats funny since we have a really good remake of that game for the system.
Well I my guess is that the 3ds could do a better job with this than the PSP.
But the PSP n64 emulator really pushes the hardware and has been developed for years and still get new beta builds.
I wouldnt expect it to be done much faster on the 3ds.

 

[DaniPoo]

My first try at getting N64 games on the 3DS would be to look at Ocarina of Time for the 3DS. If the developers ripped apart the ROM into easier to read pieces, I would try to see if I could rip apart other ROMs in a similar fashion and try to replace the pieces in OoT with new pieces of the new ROM.

It would probably be much easier to reverse-engineer OoT if the ROM itself was modified and there was an emulation top layer, but it sounds too good/ very unlikely to be true.

If there is ever a Nintendo 64 game released on the virtual console for the 3DS, that might be more a more realistic target for reverse-engineering. The main reason I am thinking of reverse-engineering instead of starting from scratch, is because I'm much better at editing code than writing it...I understand how to edit most programming languages, but I can only write in C properly.(it's actually very easy to edit almost any programming language after learning one, for me anyways)

(if anyone is wondering, I own 60 N64 cartridges ranging from Power Rangers to Quest64, including the Zelda games)

Are you just guessing? :S

 

[Sychophantom]

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/964/965/341457/

Sorry, that doesn't cover games. That case is regarding modification of game files in a non-permanent manner, but does allow the use of a dumped BIOS as long as you own the original machine. It's also mentioned in the quoted part of my previous post.

 

[Deltaechoe]

To get this post back on topic, yes the 3ds has the raw power to emulate the N64, but it will take a bit of optimization to get it to any significantly usable level.

 

[the_randomizer]

Sorry, that doesn't cover games. That case is regarding modification of game files in a non-permanent manner, but does allow the use of a dumped BIOS as long as you own the original machine. It's also mentioned in the quoted part of my previous post.

Emulation is a tricky bugger, ain't it? I personally have no moral objection in backing up the (older) games you legally own. Same with CDs, DVDs and other personal media.

 

[Thorhian]

No. PS1, N64 and PSP use MIPS CPU. So it's easier to emulate them on PSP. 3DS has ARM processor. And it's low clocked ARMv6. ePSXe team said ARMv6 was not enough for ePSXe on Android for good framerates.

And where does this info exist. Im pretty sure the 3DS runs with 2 ARM11 Cpus. Also, thanks for pointing out the MIPS, could have sworn it was using RISC, lol. However, it is still 64 Bit. However, this still proves that the 3DS cannot run n64 games perfectly or probably even close. Thanks Oxybelis.

Sorry, that doesn't cover games. That case is regarding modification of game files in a non-permanent manner, but does allow the use of a dumped BIOS as long as you own the original machine. It's also mentioned in the quoted part of my previous post.

The funny thing is that earlier you stated it as a more of a grey area. To say its completely illegal would be foolish, and state it would be legal would be equally foolish, unless either side has some sort of evidence/ support from any laws, even if it is only a little. Fair Use gives emulation a case in legality, if people do not infringe on other copyrights via piracy of games and required BIOS if needed. While DMCA and other things may get in the way.

 

[Rizsparky]

Doesnt the GPU account for anything?

 

[Rydian]

wouldnt it look terrible with the 3ds' resulution?

Most games are 320x240 which can be centered just fine in the top screen. The N64 was capable of 640x480, but from what I've read that was too taxing and introduced too low of a framerate for most devs to find acceptable. Besides, as it's been shown with 3D emulation on other things, rendering can just be done at a lower resolution.

Of course text and other sprites would suffer if a game was meant for 640x480, but I don't know which games are which as it rarely comes up.

And again, show me the law that states it does, and I'll gladly admit I am wrong.

Show me a law that says it's okay for me to jerk my dick. Last I checked laws list what's wrong, not what's right. They're a blacklist, not a whitelist. They outline behavior that the rulers of the society deem wrong.

When proper behavior is being listed, then it's in exception to otherwise-blanket laws. However emulation (and reverse-engineering) are legal, there is no blanket law for them.

Now, Fair Use, which is what most people think gives them the right to emulate, doesn't really touch on video games at all. It talks about movies, books, and music. Broad interpretation covers games, as well as art, fashion, and even tattoos.

How many in this thread have the means to make a legal backup of an N64 game? I don't.

Are you one of those people that thinks video games are some sort of sacred art and somehow above and beyond other mediums? It's software, streams of data, presented either as a service, or as a copy on a physical medium that's sold.

I can copy the contents of a DVD onto my PC any time I want, why would there be a difference if the disc contains (non-CSS encrypted) DVD-video data, versus the install files for a game? I can copy and paste files on my computer to make copies all the time, what's the difference between copying the install files for Half-Life, and last week's psych notes?

Doesnt the GPU account for anything?

The CPU is what's used to emulate the system. The GPU is just used to output the graphics like in a normal game. Generally in emulation the GPU of the containing system is much newer than that of the emulated system anyways.

 

[Thorhian]

-Snip- Super Long

Thank you, awesome post. Totally agree. However, is there anyway to do any of the calculations in emulation with the GPU? Or, would it not make a significant boost in speed/ the PICA wouldn't be able to pull something off like open CL?